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[jaked122]

screw it, let it be modded in, then  vanilla will be proper period, and mods can be whenever the hell they want.

[Granite26]

screw it, let it be modded in, then  vanilla will be proper period, and mods can be whenever the hell they want.

?

[Grimlocke]

No, mods cant be whatever the hell they want. They can only use exiting game parameters.

The best you could do is making a cannon-like ballista (one siege weapon modding is in), but you couldnt make explosive shells, multishot firing cannons, explosive traps, etc.
If the game doesnt have a similar thing, you cant mod it in, which it isnt likely to have without any explosives.

The main reason I would want gunpowder weapons involved is also to make siegers a bit mroe dangerous. Unlike now, they could simply pummel your fort full of holes from a distance untill you either come out, or just die. It makes them a bit more chalengeing then the current idiots who just charge in, find out you closed the gates, and just stand there waiting for magma and botls.
This kind of thing cant be modded in either.

Early cannons just seem to DF fine to me. Not the steampunk things, but the weapons they actualy used in the time that DF takes place. Crude, inaccurate, expensive and noisy, but deadly enough to be worth it if you have enough resources to spare.

Also, making cannons like the ones the turks  used to make (8 meter long, 18 tons in weight, firing 700kg stones, suspended in a triangular frame by chains. Fires only about 7 times a day) seems more then dwarfy enough to me. Good reason to make bronze too.

For those who still dont think gunpowder is 'proper' (whatever they mean by that) there could simply be an init file setting to turn gunpowder on and off.

Lastelly, just for the record, something about the difference between ballistas and cannons that was discussed. Because (real) ballistas realy arnt half as powerfull as cannons.

First, ballista projectiles carry far less kenetic energy. They can only pierce a few opponents at once, under favourable conditions. Cannonballs, even stone ones, carry far more energy. They could shoot trhough far more enemies then a ballista arrow, due to larger mass and speed.

More importantely is though, that ballista arrows dont fly horizontally. Like any object within earths gravity, they fall and hit the ground. Cannonballs only have part of this problem, as they have a higher speed, thus having a more shallow arch. More important is that they can bounce of the ground. Yes, sounds silly, but when cannonball hits the ground at a shallow angle, it skids off the ground like a stone on the water. Thus, its at the correct height to kill things for a far greater distance then a ballista is.

[Silverionmox]

Given the practical in-game rarity of sulphur and saltpeter, I don't think gunpowder will be unbalancing. The init switch could declare it inert, but wouldn't it be fun if you could let it choose randomly from rare minerals (Roger Zelazny constructed a whole storyline around that in the Amber series)? In some games gunpowder would require stibnite, or anydrite, rather than saltpeter. Or powdered star sapphires :p

[Rowanas]

hey goblinoids! My gunpowder is made from crushed star sapphires, that's how rich we are!

[Granite26]

Given the practical in-game rarity of sulphur and saltpeter, I don't think gunpowder will be unbalancing. The init switch could declare it inert, but wouldn't it be fun if you could let it choose randomly from rare minerals (Roger Zelazny constructed a whole storyline around that in the Amber series)? In some games gunpowder would require stibnite, or anydrite, rather than saltpeter. Or powdered star sapphires :p

A+

[SirHoneyBadger]

Flesh & Blood is a good (weird) movie. Well, anything with Rutger Hauer in it is going to be a good (weird) movie, let's face it.

And in Amber, the explosive substance was a jeweller's rouge.

The biggest problem with gunpowder might not be the comparative rarity of it's ingredient components, but the difficulty in milling them properly. Saltpeter, sulfer, and carbon just lumped together aren't really that dangerous. They need pretty extensive processing.


Considering how expensive and dangerous the types of gunpowder weapons that were available in the 1300s could be--and how interesting they often were--as long as those attributes were maintained satisfactorily, I don't see a problem with the option to mod them in, or choose to have them at the setup.

I wouldn't want them in the vanilla, though, personally.

I suspect the original reason (one of the main ones, anyway) the cutoff period wasn't 1300 AD is because plate armour didn't reach it's zenith until the latter part of that century, and into the 15th.

[Bricktop]

I think Bombards would work well within the game.

They have been mentioned a few times in this thread but have then been declared "steampunk" by people who are clearly talking out of the wrong hole.


Bombards are NOT advanced cannons. They are basically a large tube of iron or bronze which fire a big stone. They would be different from ballista's within the game for three reasons.

1. They would do far more damage, and the stones fired from them would be able to bounce, kill numerous enemies and damge contructions.

2. They would be VERY expensive to make and fire as they would require huge amounts of metal to create and gunpoweder itself would be fairly rare and expensive.

3. They would be dangerous to the operators. There would always be a chance of them mis-firing. A mild misfire could merely result in a weak shot... and serious misfire would result in the cannon exploding, destroying the cannon and causing serious injury to your dwarves. The chance of a misfire would depend on the skill of the operators and the quality of the cannon.


These weapons would be very rare, but would provide a fairly effective and, more importantly, very fun way of defending yourself. They could also be used by enemies. Goblins would forge their own cannons, and humans could get these weapons by buying contruction parts off you (they would weigh a lot but would be worth a fortune).

This would make seiges much more dangerous. Afyer all, instead of just sitting there looking at your fort and waiting for the doors to open the goblins would be loading up the cannons and firing off a volley, bladsting holes in your walls and knocking down your doors and the rest of it. When proper contruction and cave-ins get added they would become even more dangerous (imaghine a chance cannon shot taking out a major support...)


And as for people who don't like the idea.... an init option could disable gunpowder.

[Rowanas]

Actually, pointing those guns up would be quite cool. Imagine having goblin mortars raining lead, not through you walls, but over them. and returning fire Goblin teams weaving and dodging to avoid the unpredictable mortar shots falling on them and their companions.

[Wolfius]

well there are pixies and unicorns...

There are?

All I see are Pixie Pies and Unicorn Glue.

[Capntastic]

Gonna paraphrase Toady's quote on this issue:

I liked Arnold in Conan more than in Predator.

DF is a Conan type of game.