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Author Topic: WW1 Sappers = DF!  (Read 4396 times)

Grendus

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Re: WW1 Sappers = DF!
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2009, 08:36:21 pm »

Bayonets strike me as being more like spears - good for defending charges in large groups but crap for hand to hand combat. Since spears have no place in trench warfare, they haven't served a major purpose in combat since the civil war, and even then they accounted for very few actual casualties.

They're effective in their element. Close combat is not what they were designed for, the bayonet was popular for it's ability to impale people on their own inertia. The green beret shovel is popular for it's ability to kill people with it's own inertia. Totally different purpose.
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Thendash

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Re: WW1 Sappers = DF!
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2009, 09:40:36 pm »

Speaking from experience, bayonets are crap. At least the NATO ones are, I can't speak for non-NATO countries, but ours break way too easy. So unless you're only fighting one person you're gonna be screwed. But then again that's why we carry knives as well.
I've never used an entrenching tool other then to dig a hole but I could see how it'd be way better. Grendus nails it on the head, you can swing a shovel with way more force then you can thrust a bayonet.
If explosives ever get implemented it'd be so much "fun" if they could be used to dig holes, especially if sieges used them in this nature to get past defences.
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Sowelu

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Re: WW1 Sappers = DF!
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 12:39:40 pm »

Yeah, I figured that bayonets made more sense when you had a line of infantry.  The other guys have knives?  Sure, you might charge at them and expect to have a shot at the first hit on someone, but if they've got (short) spears?  Ehh...  It kind of discourages people more than anything else.

But I wouldn't want to try one in a one-on-one fight D:
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Grendus

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Re: WW1 Sappers = DF!
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2009, 10:47:13 am »

Let me update this with information gleaned from hours (minutes) of research in a giant library (wikipedia).

Bayonets were first introduced in the early days of firearms, when they were grossly inaccurate and took upwards of a minute to reload. In these days, cavalry and infantry charges were still an effective tactic. Spears had long been the effective counter to those - a charge's effectiveness is based on momentum, which spears turn back on your enemies. Since carrying around a giant spear would almost be worse than not having one, and since all the soldiers were already carrying long rods of wood and metal, it made sense to strap a spike on the end of it and turn it into an instant spear.

As guns became more and more accurate, charges slowly became less effective. Once you had to deal with rifles that were incredibly accurate and mounted weapons that could spray hundreds of bullets a minute, coming out of the trenches became a BAD idea. By this point, advances in anti-infantry weaponry made charges obsolete. Modern bayonets are mostly useless since nobody in their right mind would mount an infantry charge against handheld automatic weapons and in hand to hand combat they're too bulky compared to shorter knives or clubs. They aren't a bad weapon, they're designed for a style of war that no longer exists.
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BradB

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Re: WW1 Sappers = DF!
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2009, 04:53:11 am »

All this talk of beating people with digging tools makes me want to play TF2 and use the Soldier for once.
In fact I might just do that.
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