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[sunshaker]

Right so over in the "One Item on embark" thread (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=34994.0), I suggested Obsidian (with a few mods to allow stone axes, maces and the like), ya I know I'm weird.

But the idea has been messing with me, I keep wondering how hard it would be to do a Stone Age DF. It would be very hard to do the migratory Hunter-Gatherer type Stone age, but it would be easier to do the Dawn of Agriculture style.

Now aside from removing most or all of the metals (thus limiting the ability to mine, unless somehow the Elves can make Wooden Picks) and the metalworking/advanced careers (I know not very Dwarfy sounds almost Elven...). It would be nice if you could get trades of useful stone (Obsidian) with the traders but they will bring just about any other stone in the game as well, it doesn't seem like there is an easy way to avoid that though.

Obvioulsy I would need to do some mods to make buildings of some kind (yes wood works ok, but what about tents, unless giving everyone the hunting skill covers that). Needing to remove some weapons, mod others so they are [CAN_STONE] and making some new ones (dwarves can't use bows but I think they could use Atlatls (a club like object used to throw spears/darts), maybe a sling and if possible a javelin or throwing stick (I'm unsure how the game handles weapons that shoot themselves)).

I know that there are likely massive difficulties that I'm overlooking here, so what are they and how would I work around them?

[Fieari]

You seem to be describing Kobold Camp.

[DgnBiscuit]

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool idea. If you wanted to hit the dawn of agriculture here are some things that you might want to do:

• Remove all the domesticated animals except dogs (actually, just remove the pet tag, I think, since all the animals existed they were just wild).
• The copper age (prior to writing, post stone age, dawn of agriculture) did have stone and copper tools, as well as open pit mining, so stone and copper picks would work (as well as weapons).
• If you wanted to encompass all cultures that went through this period you could have stone headed spears, simple bows, atlatls(sp, spear throwers), slings, stone bladed swords, knives, clubs, scythes, and picks for weapons.
• I don't know if it would be possible, but from a historical prospect you'd want to have a lot more food items generated from a carcass: Organ meat and marrow especially.
• Alcohol would be straight out (poor dwarves). I believe you can remove the tag from the dwarf profile.
• If you really want to talk about the dawn of agriculture then you're talking about growing crops from plants native to the area via seed collection, so you'd want to remove seeds from embark (don't know how you do this, but it should be possible).
• Armor doesn't really make an appearance for quite some time, but there were primitive cultures that had wood and bone or shell armor, whether you keep it would be a matter of discretion.
• Mechanisms would be straight out as well: No levers, flood gates, axles, wind mills, water wheels, bridges, doors, or anything of that sort.
• Crafts did exist, but you'd want to remove things that don't exist in the era (e.g. mini-forges). Stone, bone, and shell only (metal was virtually exclusively for tools).
• Gems weren't really worked, so the jewelers shop might have to go.
• I don't know if you can mod what dwarves like or don't like, but removing the bad thoughts about sleeping in the dirt, drinking bad water, or not having tables or chairs would be nice.
• While they did carve stone, they didn't really smooth stone or make fortifications, so engraving is out. So is making walls or fortifications (Jericho, one of the first cities and the first real walled city, didn't have a wall at the dawn of agriculture and didn't have one for several thousand years after).
• If you can find a way to hunt bugs, that'd be an accurate source of food (not the best food, but they were eaten).
• You'd have to keep the kitchen, but loose the barrels.
• Keep animal traps and stone fall traps, but loose cage and weapon.
• You'd have to modify the nobles some how, but you'd need to pick a primitive culture to model them after.

Hope this helps!

-DB

[sunshaker]

You seem to be describing Kobold Camp.

Kind of but not exactly. First all races "younger" than Elves and Dwarves are at best scavengers (they trade food for your sharp stone), everyone is low tech (maybe add in an older race that is dying out). I'm not sure where this leaves humans (as they are always portrayed as a race younger than both the elves and the dwarves). The idea being that the Stone Dwarves are smart just at a very low tech level (they are still figuring things out), where as the Kobold Camp mod assumes the Kobolds are idiots (and won't ever have the brain power to be anything more). The world is no more hostile towards the dwarves in this mod than the regular Vanilla DF.

[sunshaker]

Actually, that sounds like a pretty cool idea. If you wanted to hit the dawn of agriculture here are some things that you might want to do:

• Remove all the domesticated animals except dogs (actually, just remove the pet tag, I think, since all the animals existed they were just wild).
• The copper age (prior to writing, post stone age, dawn of agriculture) did have stone and copper tools, as well as open pit mining, so stone and copper picks would work (as well as weapons).
• If you wanted to encompass all cultures that went through this period you could have stone headed spears, simple bows, atlatls(sp, spear throwers), slings, stone bladed swords, knives, clubs, scythes, and picks for weapons.
• I don't know if it would be possible, but from a historical prospect you'd want to have a lot more food items generated from a carcass: Organ meat and marrow especially.
• Alcohol would be straight out (poor dwarves). I believe you can remove the tag from the dwarf profile.
• If you really want to talk about the dawn of agriculture then you're talking about growing crops from plants native to the area via seed collection, so you'd want to remove seeds from embark (don't know how you do this, but it should be possible).
• Armor doesn't really make an appearance for quite some time, but there were primitive cultures that had wood and bone or shell armor, whether you keep it would be a matter of discretion.
• Mechanisms would be straight out as well: No levers, flood gates, axles, wind mills, water wheels, bridges, doors, or anything of that sort.
• Crafts did exist, but you'd want to remove things that don't exist in the era (e.g. mini-forges). Stone, bone, and shell only (metal was virtually exclusively for tools).
• Gems weren't really worked, so the jewelers shop might have to go.
• I don't know if you can mod what dwarves like or don't like, but removing the bad thoughts about sleeping in the dirt, drinking bad water, or not having tables or chairs would be nice.
• While they did carve stone, they didn't really smooth stone or make fortifications, so engraving is out. So is making walls or fortifications (Jericho, one of the first cities and the first real walled city, didn't have a wall at the dawn of agriculture and didn't have one for several thousand years after).
• If you can find a way to hunt bugs, that'd be an accurate source of food (not the best food, but they were eaten).
• You'd have to keep the kitchen, but loose the barrels.
• Keep animal traps and stone fall traps, but loose cage and weapon.
• You'd have to modify the nobles some how, but you'd need to pick a primitive culture to model them after.

Hope this helps!

-DB

Thanks.

They have found traces of alcohol in ancient tombs from more than 6000 years ago, natural fermentation happened (put some berries in a clay vase and if you don't eat them fast enough they ferment, the flavor might not be the greatest (modern yeasts are carefully selected to avoid off flavors) but it would get you drunk)

Antler picks where used to mine flint out of the chalk in England (wiki Grimes Graves) but since you can't get antlers or horn to drop from animals (yet) bone picks would work fine.

While you can't get more types of meat to drop you can increase the amount of meat and bones dropped.

Eating bugs is easy just add more vermin (and then trap them with animal traps).

Well I see your point about barrels as we know them today, but in the past they used potter and carved stone containers in a similar way.

I suspect that if you remove the agriculture tokens from the civilizations they will not allow seeds on embark, however, they will also not allow plants on embark, nor will their merchants sell you seeds or plants. If you are coming from a civilization to settle a new area you would probably bring seeds/plants with you (just like you would bring an axe or a pick or a weapon). Otherwise you can just forage for what grows in the area. Probably a better idea is to modify the plant list so you have only one or two useful plants which give seeds, allowing you to start the game with them, and have the rest of the plants be seedless forcing you to gather them.

I can remove the Mason skill and the Engraving skill. Relying on wood (Carpentry) for above ground buildings is ok and though this will require a lot of trees.

I can see everyone starting with herbalist 5 and then a smattering of other skills, hunting is one of those odd skills (it allows lots of useful things like sleeping anywhere and not minding the weather, but hunting is a high priority job and anyone with hunting will try to hunt before they do anything else, I discovered this when I made a hunter/carpenter/wood cutter one game, he absolutely would not stop hunting to disassemble the wagon, cut down a tree or make a bed, I had to shut hunting off).

[madrain]

You seem to be describing Kobold Camp.

I'm not sure where this leaves humans (as they are always portrayed as a race younger than both the elves and the dwarves).

Make kobolds a form of vermin, like those fairies are.

Make humans like kobolds.  Maybe heartier, but can't speak and all the other tags that make kobolds hated little thieves would now be on humans.

[Bricks]

I always imagined ancestral dwarfs as starting out underground, which is why they have their odd technologies (milking purring maggots, growing underground crops).  Perhaps once we get the updated underground, a stone-age dwarf race could expand on these themes, introduce the most rudimentary uses for mysterious metals (can you reduce the success rate on mining metal, or cap mining ability? I'm guessing not, but perhaps you could have 'metal' rock that could be smelted with a very low success rate) and introduce an underground race of protodemons as antagonists.  The protodemons could be more 'noble' (goblin/elf hybrid?) and have high-tech compared to the stone dwarfs, such as metal weapons/armor/tools, and treat the dwarfs with relative indifference apart from an innate curiosity.  Then you steal their secrets, and encase them in the very metal they worship!  BWAHAHA!

Ahem.  Anyway, it would be far more interesting to create your own stone-age dwarf mythos than simply adapt to historical humans.  I actually don't think early dwarfs would use bone implements - that is more tribal, something I would associate with humans/elves/goblins.  Surface dwellers.  Hell, I'm not even sure what stone-age dwarfs would wear.  Cave-moss loincloths?

And you definitely need to include booze, somehow.  Make it rare, like metal, but make it obtainable.  Zany idea - can you use rotten items in reactions?  You could throw some cave berries in a room, lock the door, and let it rot.  Then you brew Fermented Nectar.

Hmm, maybe I will just make that mod.

[sunshaker]

I always imagined ancestral dwarfs as starting out underground, which is why they have their odd technologies (milking purring maggots, growing underground crops).  Perhaps once we get the updated underground, a stone-age dwarf race could expand on these themes, introduce the most rudimentary uses for mysterious metals (can you reduce the success rate on mining metal, or cap mining ability? I'm guessing not, but perhaps you could have 'metal' rock that could be smelted with a very low success rate) and introduce an underground race of protodemons as antagonists.  The protodemons could be more 'noble' (goblin/elf hybrid?) and have high-tech compared to the stone dwarfs, such as metal weapons/armor/tools, and treat the dwarfs with relative indifference apart from an innate curiosity.  Then you steal their secrets, and encase them in the very metal they worship!  BWAHAHA!

Ahem.  Anyway, it would be far more interesting to create your own stone-age dwarf mythos than simply adapt to historical humans.  I actually don't think early dwarfs would use bone implements - that is more tribal, something I would associate with humans/elves/goblins.  Surface dwellers.  Hell, I'm not even sure what stone-age dwarfs would wear.  Cave-moss loincloths?

And you definitely need to include booze, somehow.  Make it rare, like metal, but make it obtainable.  Zany idea - can you use rotten items in reactions?  You could throw some cave berries in a room, lock the door, and let it rot.  Then you brew Fermented Nectar.

Hmm, maybe I will just make that mod.

I think I will wait for the next release as the updated underground sounds cool with stone age dwarfs.

[Lav]

I suspect that if you remove the agriculture tokens from the civilizations they will not allow seeds on embark, however, they will also not allow plants on embark, nor will their merchants sell you seeds or plants.

Start from an underground civ.

Remove all underground plants from raws.

Add one fictional plant that is only edible when milled and has a totally absurd growth time (30000 IIRC should be enough).

Results: player can get food on embark and he can buy it from traders. He cannot grow it himself though and cannot get seeds except from embark/traders. To get a steady food supply the player will be forced to forage the area for edible crops.

For extra fun, I recommend modding in a few useless weed plants with higher frequency. Finding good stuff should not be easy. :-)

[Bloogonis]

well, in reality weeds are only considered weeds by "lawn keeper" civs. all plants can be used for something, and if they have floweres and/or fruit they can be brewed. Ex: Dandelion wine.

[Deon]

Heh, Bloogonis, I didn't know what "dandelion" was in english so I was going to add "think of blowball wine!" Luckily, I've used google translated before this post .

[varkarrus]

Nah. I think it would be funny if kobolds seiged your camp long and hard using laser guns and plasma swords. And wearing power armor.

[eerr]

Nah. I think it would be funny if kobolds seiged your camp long and hard using laser guns and plasma swords. And wearing power armor.

just copper armour would be a complete embarassment, but what if you modded copper to be the new [adamantium]?

hell, with absurdly weak stone picks, copper could be the new adamantium.

complete with kobolds that rush out at you.