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[crazycarlt]

I'm not all the way through the book, so don't spoil it. But I think a great megaproject would be to build a dwarven Math based on the great book by Neil Stephenson, Anathem.

In Anathem, the world is divided into secular and mathic, with the mathic portion consisting of cloistered monks living in monasteries called Maths.

The largest Maths have large clocks that are wound by ritual and accurate for thousands of years. The clocks control gates in a concentric series of walls that subdivide the Math. The Day gate, the Year gate, the Decinarian gate, the Centinarian gate, and the Millenial gate.

As you may infer, these gates open only once a day, year, 10-year, 100-year, or 1000-year cycle.

Dwarves, and goods, can only flow into and out of the cloistered sections every 1, 10, 100, or 1000 years. Quite the time scale for a fortress!

To simulate this, I would propose building trade depots inside of each section that are selectively blocked in such a way that only one is open at a time, the deepest one accessible.

Each section would need to be relatively self-sufficient... but I have a feeling that's not a problem for any of us. Many have built biodome-like fortresses walled off from any possible invasion.

Not all dwarves would be required to be 'monks' (or Avout, as Stephenson calls them). Indeed, a portion would live outside of the walls, simulating the seculars, living in relative chaos and poverty. These would create goods and items to 'trade' with dwarves inside of the math's Unarian area. This functionality would be accomplished through a stockpile with two entrances that toggle each day, set as a 'take from' stockpile that feeds into resource piles. (for example, trapped/hunted animals) and which itself takes from other stockpiles crafts and things. The seculars might then have their own trade depot (which would have to be blocked during one of the special opening times) to at least trade with the passing secular caravans.

On the topic of the clock. It is of course the greatest challenge of this megaproject, since the organization and shuffling around of dwarves between 1, 10, and 100 and 1000 year sections would probably be easily accomplished through simple re-assignment of beds.

I don't know what would be the best mechanism, but even in the book it is stated that the clock has regular maintenance and calibration, so it need not be perfectly able to keep time. If such a clock could use cauldrons of water fed by a river, each tipping and spilling a single 7/7 volume into its neighbor until we gained the resolution necessary (one day), then it might be possible to connect those to some sort of binary flip-flop matrix that then translated into a nice big 7-seg digital clock visible from above. (maybe filled with magma?!)

The act of 'winding' the clock, a daily ceremony performed in the book, may be a cauldron that fills up and needs to be pumped back up to the resevoir. A closed water system would be coolest, in my opinion. One that only needed occasional filling. However, this would require one huge resevoir, or some means of reducing the flow rate... I'm saying a lot without explaining.

Finally, the book mentions water power being used to operate the door, and also a frequent use of bells to chime different ceremonies. I would substitute fountains for bells and well, water power can still be used to open the doors, instead of the magic means of linking a pressure plate to the far away door.

Has anybody else read Anathem? Have ideas?

[wendigo]

Hey, that's a very fun challenge you've got in mind.  There really *is* something monastic (err, cough) mathic about the dwarf settlements-- minus the children being born, of course.

Anathem is indeed a very fun read, though perhaps not the best introduction for someone new to Stephenson.  Just reading a synopsis may be enough for people to get the gist of avout society, though.  One neat thing-- the clock that anchors each math varies in design!  Some are huge, some tiny, some low-maintenance, some require aid from the outside world just to keep running.  Builders could really let their imagination run wild on this one.

Two tricky parts to implement:

1>  The secular / mathic societies & their interactions.  This is hard to express using dorfs alone.  Sometimes the saeculum is buddy-buddy with the avout, sometimes indifferent, sometimes actively hostile.  It may be easier to make a modded "Anathem Version" of DF, with the dwarven society modded to "avout" and humans (or maybe ALL other races) standing in for the secular outside.  Then make a rule that new maths/fortresses be built on top of an existing settlement.  I'm not sure how you'd implement the shifting relations with your neighbors, though-- as it stands, we can loot off of these neighbors without reprisal.

2>  The time scale for opening the gates.  This isn't exactly complicated to implement, but could be tedious.  Running a fortress for a hundred years isn't *that* crazy, but a thousand?  Screwing around with the calendar seems unavoidable, at least if we want the thousanders to be anything other than a bio-dome that no dwarves can ever come out of.

Ugh, this is coming off as too negative... love the idea, and if you cook up at least a standard set of rules for this challenge I'll probably have to give it a go.  Enjoy the read!

[crazycarlt]

Actually, my intro to Stephenson was Snow Crash. I'm going to go back and read through the rest of his books now that I've really sunk my teeth in.

Why not consider the existing set of elves, humans, dorfs and goblins to be the assorted peoples of the seculum, with their assorted iconographies? Obviously goblins want to destroy the avout and steal them away.

Children being born does break the simulation... but isn't there a simple init tweak to stop children from being born?

I agree that the thousander gate would be a bit crazy as far as the time scale of DF games goes... But as thousanders do in one Math in the book... maybe your thousanders could be guarding something... like tending cages of HFS.

You also make a good point on the topic of clocks. The design of the clock would be up to each architect, and require only that, when completed, the clock must be responsible for activating the gates, even if the effect is indirectly caused by commands of periodic 'winding' or maintenence activity given by the player (calibrating it by switch pulls. Switch pulls cannot operate the gates directly if the clock is to be considered completely functional)

Other activities: Calling down Anathem on dwarves that go insane or commit crimes. Evoking skilled dwarves for some function outside the walls (they can't leave the map... so dwarves that are excommunicated by these means might just be given a hut in a corner and a meager plot  of land for their activities? Hard to truly separate dwarves that might decide to use the dining hall inside the unarian math when they get hungry, slipping through the day gate.)

I imagine that nobles would likely be shuffled into the hundred-year and thousand-year parts of the math. Not like they need to be out, apart from the king, sheriff, dungeon master and hammerer.

Yes. A concise and clear set of rules for this challenge/megaproject is necessary. I'll have to think on it for a little bit.

[Scarpa]

That's a pretty cool idea.

To simplify it somewhat I would say replace years with seasons, and instead of actually implementing a clock just manually kick off the door opening ritual.

Maybe something like you said where when you see the 'it is now summer' message you queue up some pumping or pond filling jobs. That could trigger the door opening and then some kind of counter to keep the door open for a specified time.

As far as keeping the dwarves separated, I would just let them move freely when the gates are open and then wherever they end up when the gates close is where they stay until the next cycle. This is sort of how it went in Anathem - I believe any avout could leave when the gates were open. I know they couldn't freely 'elevate' themselves like that but hey you'd be halfway there.

You could maybe also implement a labyrinth to allow dwarves to step up to a higher math.

Very cool idea, and yes, it's an awesome book! I read it twice in succession because by the end I realized how much crap I missed the first time around.

[crazycarlt]

It may indeed be good to replace years with seasons, but I like the idea of having the oldest, most highly-skilled dwarves in the deepest part.

I agree on the topic of a labyrinth. The mines would already serve as such and if one merely set the traffic to restricted, dwarves would seldom travel through them to the upper reaches of the Math.

Due to the difficulty of building a clock, I might write the rules as 'a mechanism for opening one or more of the main doors, the more complicated the better. Automation for extra points, and a clock to really get into the spirit.'

I also realized that this could have other challenges layered in, like a vegetarian math, or one that forbade metals, throwing all ores over the outer wall.

Only providing dwarves with a few posessions could serve to mimic the bolt, cord, and sphere of the book. There's no real reason to completely facsimile the representation, especially since I have no idea what could stand in for a 'sphere' and besides, it's hard enough to manage dwarven clothing deposits that crop up in the hallways and rooms.

Much could be accomplished by narrative/storytelling and imagination.

Back to the key elements: A cloister of dwarves that is kept isolated from the outside world for extended periods of time (1 year plus) and observes a specific discipline. The discipline can be fleshed out by the player, but examples include wearing only robes, never consuming alcohol, performing seasonal rituals involving catapults, pumps, switches or etc.
It is recommended that players disable economy and rent. For extra challenge, disable childbirth.
It is recommended that migrants live in relative poverty outside the walls, in their own hovels and such, until the time when the gates open and they are swear the oath and remain indoors for the period where they are locked inside. It can be assumed that the migrants all want to move inside each time...
Migrants living outside the walls are of course welcome to mingle with the 'secular' world of traders and ambushers.
For added fun, build a large minster which provides not only space for various ceremonies and 'auts' you invent or borrow from the book (the conduction of the auts is left to the player to imagine and implement) but also allows dwarves from centenarian, decinarian, and millinerian maths to participate/view from behind bars/fortifications, much like they do in the book.
For further fun, room dwarves in the maths according to their avocation, or the studies of the saunt they ascribe to.
For even yet more fun, construct dowments (richly built-up buildings belonging to a certain saunt's lineage) and decorate them with the artifacts of the dwarves that are members. Any number of megaprojects can be substituted, or just build your own. Great labyrinths, sacrificial pits (who says they have to be nice?) tall towers or elaborate magmaworks forges.
Of course, engrave everything.
For still more fun, capture HFS in cages and keep them locked away in a math, guarded at all times by dwarves entrusted with the task of making sure these creatures never escape.

Notes: No need to avoid combat training, extensive trapping, or any other means of keeping the secular ambushers and siegers at bay. The gates are a single line of defense, but not the only one.

[Draco18s]

Actually, my intro to Stephenson was Snow Crash. I'm going to go back and read through the rest of his books now that I've really sunk my teeth in.

Same here.  Loved Snow Crash.  I also read and loved Cryptonomicon.

Anyway, this project sounds fantastic.  I suggest that you use a shorter time scale, like months.  That puts your inner-most seclusion on an 83.3 year schedule (leave it open for 1 year, then close it off for 82.3, that way you know you can get a caravan in and out in time).

[Grek]

Why not arrange it so that it's per day, per month, per season, per year and per decade?

Bonus points: Make a gem window clock which gives the correct decade, year month, day, hour and, if possible, minute. Bonus points for color and pictures.

[Draco18s]

"Per day" is too short, IMO.  1 week would be the shortest time that having the door open would actually matter.

[crazycarlt]

Hmm. Maybe the clock could be loosened a bit. Extra fun to make it accurate to the passage of dwarf time, but it is only necessary that it marks off regular intervals which are used to meter the isolation of each section...

I also like the idea of going by months... since I doubt that anybody has played a DF game 1000 years long.

[chaos985]

Id rather bypass the idea of the regular time frame then the clock...

Have an automated clock that opens some doors, and closes others automatically.  Have it run constantly.  Try to adjust it to be close to a season, but that shouldnt be a strict amount of time.