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[ZeroGravitas]

Well, if not straight back at the firer, then the arrow should be launched in a random direction. A Legendary Axeman deserves to be able to deflect that Goblin +Iron Bolt+ into the troll to his left.

He's so legendary he doesn't even need to care about laws of physics I see. Might as well block it with his beard if we want to be ridiculous. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean it has to have the physics from Animaniacs

This is a stupid argument. The reason there aren't giant spiders in real life is because of physics. You're basically saying you want to obey some laws of physics and not others, but you have no good reason for which ones you are picking other than your own aesthetic sense, which  is  completely subjective.

[Pilsu]

I don't think we need Rule of Cool in the combat mechanics

[Fieari]

Actually, yes.  I want to obey some laws of physics, but not others.  I don't want to obey the Square Cubed law, because the Square Cubed law is unintuitive and makes for boring fantasy.  I want arrow trajectories to follow the laws of physics, because that's intuitive, and provides for more potentially awesome fantasy.  For example, I'd be in favor of CATCHING the arrow and then launching it back at the attacker via bow, or even throwing it if you're strong enough.

[ZeroGravitas]

Actually, yes.  I want to obey some laws of physics, but not others.  I don't want to obey the Square Cubed law, because the Square Cubed law is unintuitive and makes for boring fantasy.  I want arrow trajectories to follow the laws of physics, because that's intuitive, and provides for more potentially awesome fantasy.  For example, I'd be in favor of CATCHING the arrow and then launching it back at the attacker via bow, or even throwing it if you're strong enough.

Add "to me" after every bolded word. Then consider that someone else could write "deflecting arrows is potentially awesome TO ME". That is my point.

[Pilsu]

Catching arrows isn't that much more realistic than reflecting them. There was an episode on it on.. whatsamacallit with the walrusman

[Sowelu]

Hmm.  I do like sparring that only trains skills up to a certain point, based on the commander's skill in fighting and teaching.  Real combat of course can train skills higher, maybe based on opponent--stabbing a thousand drunks and kids won't really teach you to hit someone who's really fighting back.

As for physics, I maintain that scale is fudgable but momentum is not.  Scale changes are vaguely believable, but momentum is so key to human functioning in the physical world that if it doesn't work believably, it just feels wrong.  To me.  A four year old doesn't know why why a GCS can't exist, hey, people are different sizes and dinosaurs existed, but he sure as heck knows a thrown rock won't turn at a right angle in midair.

[bjlong]

Fieari: Not sure how they did their testing, but I have seen live demonstrations where someone has caught an arrow from a few yards away. That said, totally unrealistic in combat. More realistic: soldiers cutting aside arrows with a flick of their sword. The arrow drops to the ground, harmlessly.

The important thing about DF is that it's real life plus fantasy. This means real world mechanics with fantasy elements such as fantastic creatures, multiple sentient humanoid species, magic, and who-knows-what-else.

Let me put this in perspective. I'm a physics major. Most movies, when they come to physics, are about as accurate as the time cube. They pull out an "IT'S PHYSICS!" explanation, or none at all, to explain why plot device X works just so. And this always. Drives. Me. Crazy.

Some movies are much better about it, though. For example, Timeline. It breaks SO many laws of physics, but they're all obscured--for example, mass is not conserved with a time machine, but that requires a more in-depth explanation than anyone would enjoyably listen to, so I'm OK with that. Then there's the whole "earth's hurtling around the sun which is hurtling around a black hole" bit. Same deal.

Basically, I like my treatment of physics in fictional works like I like my women: with enough realism or explanation of the funny bits to let me go on without a sense of indignation, but not so much that it becomes a physics lecture. Maybe I like my women a bit differently, actually.

I'd be fine with artifacts of turn-the-fuck-around, but just saying "Yeah, he can deflect arrows right back at the bow borgle because he's JUST THAT GOOD," doesn't cut it.

[G-Flex]

The thing about giant cave spiders and so forth is that the world does allow for whatever kinds of magic it wants. We don't know how DF cosmology and magic work, so we don't really know how they could warp the laws of physics.

I mean, I like that the game is realistic. I WANT realistic combat mechanics, damage, and all that sort of thing. But it's also a fantasy world with magic and gods and undead and other things which pretty explicitly break the normal physical laws, and that's cool too.

Basically, both "it's a fantasy game, things don't have to be realistic" and "everything should be as realistic in terms of our world as possible" viewpoints are extremely naive, as BOTH can essentially be true; the game can be extremely realistic in that it represents the physical law of the game universe (essentially the same physical laws as our own, of course) while also allowing for its OWN laws and law-breaking concepts on top of that, such as magic. So things should, in my opinion, still be handled quite realistically, but with allowances for things like magic changing some of that in order to make things like hydras, giant olms, skeletal land sharks, dragonfire, and giant spiders plausible.

[ZeroGravitas]

The thing about giant cave spiders and so forth is that the world does allow for whatever kinds of magic it wants. We don't know how DF cosmology and magic work, so we don't really know how they could warp the laws of physics.

I mean, I like that the game is realistic. I WANT realistic combat mechanics, damage, and all that sort of thing. But it's also a fantasy world with magic and gods and undead and other things which pretty explicitly break the normal physical laws, and that's cool too.

Basically, both "it's a fantasy game, things don't have to be realistic" and "everything should be as realistic in terms of our world as possible" viewpoints are extremely naive, as BOTH can essentially be true; the game can be extremely realistic in that it represents the physical law of the game universe (essentially the same physical laws as our own, of course) while also allowing for its OWN laws and law-breaking concepts on top of that, such as magic. So things should, in my opinion, still be handled quite realistically, but with allowances for things like magic changing some of that in order to make things like hydras, giant olms, skeletal land sharks, dragonfire, and giant spiders plausible.

Obviously.  The question is whether or not deflecting arrows SHOULD be possible within that universe. The argument that "it isn't possible because physics makes it impossible" is a failing argument because we have flexibility in the first place with what the  laws of physics allow.

Does that mean we should have champions deflecting arrows? I have no idea. But the physics argument is not an answer either way.

[Felblood]

I'm okay with parrying arrows, at a significant penalty, compared to close combat strikes, but deflecting thing back at your enemy is really hard to picture, unless the projectile is a sphere or an energy blast.

Think about it like this. Arrows don't have rocket engines in them; Turning an arrow around doesn't alter it's momentum; you turn an arrow ninety degrees and you get hit with the side of the arrow. That might save you from damage, but it won't kill the troll in the adjacent square.

You'd need to either guide it through a half circle, to redirect it back toward your opponent, or literally have the tip strike your shield and have the arrow bounce back, fletching first, toward the shooter. The first of these possibilities makes intuitive sense, but it would be beyond merely legendary+5 to pull it off, and require the speed of The Flash. The second one is cartoon physics and really does belong in Looney Toons. (Picture Elmer Fudd or Wiley E. Coyote getting bonked in the forehead by the back end of his own arrow. It's quality material, in the proper venue.)

The physics of DF do need to make cinematic concessions, for magic and monsters and quests and demons, but the world needs to stay somewhat grounded in intuitive physics, or it will be too alien for us to envision, let alone relate to.

[Footkerchief]

The physics of DF do need to make cinematic concessions, for magic and monsters and quests and demons, but the world needs to stay somewhat grounded in intuitive physics, or it will be too alien for us to envision, let alone relate to.

Yeah.  It's fine to disregard physics in inherently unrealistic situations like magic and all that, but a bow and arrow is meant to evoke a real-world object that a player expects to behave in certain ways.

[G-Flex]

Deflecting an arrow BACK at the shooter is, of course, total bullshit and shouldn't be possible at all except for in REALLY weird and obviously-magical circumstances.

Just hitting one out of the air should probably be possible, but only likely whatsoever at very high skill levels.

Toady has implied before that people with enough skill in things like combat could perhaps be able to perform some magical or quasi-magical things, for instance legendary martial arts (think: most kung-fu movies).

[Neonivek]

I think there should be obvious benefits to getting to the Master-Legendary Skill range... and clearly impossible things are DEFINATELY one of the fringe benefits I think should happen (to an extent).

Deflecting arrows back at the opponent, catching arrows in the air, breaking an arrow in two, and Forcing a crossbow all are within that domain.

The game already gives you super strength, super agility, super stamina and super skill all far beyond human capability and while I am not saying "Lets throw out physics" I am saying that secondary to physics is the epic atmosphere and frankly we need to represent the fact that we are dealing with characters who could easily be Hercules.

As for Botching: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[Sowelu]

If you can hit an arrow back at an opponent, you might as well take your sword and a pile of arrows out to the battlefield, chuck them in the air, and whack them at goblins.  Who needs a crossbow when you're that bad-ass?

And to me, well...no.  Arrows aren't baseball.