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Author Topic: various things  (Read 12467 times)

Zonk

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various things
« on: April 12, 2002, 11:22:00 am »

Im trying to memorize seed numbers on files so i can play
the best universes...it would be COOL to be able to play the
"Old universe"like in the old versions before the cleanup...
Actually you must create a new universe every time...and,if you
have a "favorite universe",writing seed numbers EVERYTIME YOU CREATE
A NEW CHARACTER is slow and boring.

If you want overlapped civilizations...
Try the seed number 2069639996

in this universe there are 2 overlapped civilizations in the south
part of the world map:
they are "Convoluted Titans"and "Naked-Mole dogs".
Convoluted Titans are class based and weight around 700 kg

I we will have a "clear statement of height"in next versions,will
we have limits on entering houses?It's VERY irrealistic to be
able to enter a kobold house as a titan...Not too large creatures
should be able to enter not too small creatures houses by crawling.

Also height should put limits on passing under bridges and A LOT
of other things...

When we will have armor and clothing,they will be displayed on the
3d creature models,right?I really hope so...

I like the "Behemoth slaughter-beast",but the modifications
in the graphics make it look smaller than it should be...
Currently all quadrapeds look small and with a short middle body(torax,
abdomen,ecc...ecc).

By the way survivor mode is ***VERY COOL***...and im not saying it
only because it's called "Zonk's Survivor Mode"and i proposed it :-)

I think it would be better if,in the character creation screen,
you could see the species average weight and attributes(compared
to other creatures of the same size)

Since we will have Saving/Loading in one of the next clean-up version:
i think it should be possible to copy save files,to send them to
other persons...or to cheat the game :-) Im planning to play
a leprechaun character who will become skilled enough with his
weapon to kill titans :-) With Saving/Loading it will be possible...


ALso...i had another dream with Slaves to Armok in it...well,the dream
was very confused,but i remember there was some "Slaves to armok"in it,
because i remember i was "fleeing"from a quadraped creature model...
The creature model in the dream was as big as a bear and looked
like a cross between a boar and a mammhut :-) It had tusks i remember.


I think i will almost get an heart attack when we will be able
to use the species editor...Im waiting to be able create monstruosities
like(these are some example from my "evil"mind):
50 tons walking octopuses
four armed 3-eyed horned titans
15 tons snakes with horns, feathers and wings
2 tons rabbit with red eyes and VERY sharp teeths
3-eyed,3-armed,3-legged humans


Of course,will we be ble to play non-regular,non-living(but non-undead)
species/things like golems and elementals(maybe elementals count
as living?)?And will we be able to play deities and gods?Of course,
with the appropiate powers(and penalities on the score board maybe?)

Also im trying the 8 april version NOW

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Toady One

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Re: various things
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2002, 02:32:00 pm »

He he -- you won't have to worry about seed numbers for long.  This weekend I'm going to put up version 0.03.36g, which is the last speed fix.  The version AFTER that includes save/load:

Saving and loading in Armok covers a lot of your concerns.  Right now, this is what I'm thinking -- there are two types of objects, actual saved universes and "universe definitions".  A universe definition is just the seed/genre/atmosphere/plot.  In current terms that would be the seed and Demon's land percentage counter :)  The universe definiton information acts together to produce a universe, that is, if you change some of the information, but keep the seed the same, you'll get a completely different universe.  All of the information matters.  Now for actual saved universes, there are two types -- active and inactive.  An active universe is a universe that has a player living in it.  When you load these, you'll go back to your old game and can continue playing.  When you load an inactive universe, you will create a new character to live in a universe that has had previous players in it (much like it was before).  The game will have some way of deciding, or allowing you to decide, how much time will pass between players.  You'll be able to copy universes and so on, so that you can (for example) have two universes running with the same universe definition to see how they both turn out.

You'll be able to take universe definitions and saved universes and send them to your friends, and so on.  Using the active/inactive universes, you could, say, create a universe, run a single player, and send the file to a friend.  That friend could run one game and send it back.  In this way, you can build on each other's previous characters and surprise each other with the massive changes you've made to the universe -- or maybe just the obscene graffiti that you scrawled on the previous player's tombstone.

I really don't have a good estimate how much disk space a universe will take -- hopefully it won't prohibit easy transfer to other computers.

One "limitation" to the system that I can see is that you can only run one player in a universe at a time.  It is possible to get around this -- if you take an active universe and tell the game that you want to create a new player, the old player could be turned into a magical statue for example.  After the new player is done, you could activate the old statue and finish that game, although the world would be advanced from the position the old player was used to (the new player could bury the statue for instance).  This would permit various forms of cheating (like taking risks with new players to gather valuables for the old player), although this would allow you to simulate the action of a party of adventurers or a crime ring, for example.  That's kind of a trashy system though -- perhaps sometime I should add multi-character player parties, so that you can just do it like a normal game.  "One player + NPCs" parties are only marginally easier to add (and harder in some ways), so it's not really a big deal.

Although "Armok" wouldn't necessarily appear in most universes, the whole notion of Armok's Hall of Blood that I have now could be used to keep track of trans-universal high scores (ie your "best" games and legends, regardless of universe), as well a many other important trans-universal statistics (who holds the record for most creatures ever killed in any universe, and so on).  The player legends/tales/drunken bar stories and so on would be restricted to whatever universe that player was in.  It will be almost impossible to compare scores between different universes, but it might be worthwhile to at least try -- the trans-universal statistics might be more interesting to many people.

This save/load system could also be used to completely tear a given player out of his or her universe and stick him or her in an entirely new one.  I'm not sure why you'd want to do this (it will (almost?) always be sufficient to simply travel to a new world/plane within the same universe, and it would be more proper in a sense).

----------------
other stuff

I know the going into houses when you're giant looks dumb...  not sure when I'll get to that.  I'm also not sure how much of the "clean up" is going to get done before I feel the pull to start the motif editor.  When I add getting blocked by doorways, the other blockages will follow naturally -- I'm simply not going to let large creatures enter small areas.  The map is still represented underneath all the semi-fancy graphics by a 3D grid, so this is easy.

Clothing had better be displayed on models eventually, or I'll have to add another item to my content warning.  It shouldn't be all that hard to do.  Depending on the clothing/armor type, it will either change the texture or replace some body parts in the model with larger clothing/armor models.  There shouldn't be any significant speed issues associated with this, since any body parts that are covered will not be printed.

Quadruped bodies are really bad -- I think that might be slightly better now, but it is still bad.  The problem is, humanoid creatures (humans being the only good example in real life terms) have very very very large legs compared to the rest of their bodies.  Normal quadrupeds shouldn't have such giant legs and arms.  All of the quads look like those long legged things from the Dark Crystal right now.  I'll probably fix this when I get to lizards in the motif editor version -- lizards almost never have large legs, so far as I know -- reptilian dragons are usually drawn with larger-than-normal-reptile legs, though.

Needless to say, we hope you don't die when the species editor comes out.  I wonder how the model maker would react to all of those new creatures you want to make...  it should be versatile enough the way it is to at least make a half-assed approximation to any of them, although there are undoubtedly some unconscious humanoid/quadruped assumptions that have tainted the system.  These will be purged as people complain.

Uck...  I spell "quadruped" wrong way too often.  I always write "quadraped".  It must come from "quadratic equations"...  it can't come from "quadrilateral" or "quadrennial".  At least there aren't a whole lot of "quadro" words.

I'm going to add some more species characteristic comparison to character creation later on.  I probably wouldn't be able to fit everything I want on that screen, so you'll probably be able to, say, right click on a creature in the list to pop up some stats/comparisons, etc.

Lessee...  so of course, in a regular sort of sense, playing non-living critters is improper.  That would be a bad design decision though, since some people want to play them and those that don't won't.  So sure.  As far as powers go, any sort of power a deity has, you'd have if you are able to play a deity.  Deities with a physical form would be trivial to set up for play.  Abstract gods that just kinda exist and cause miracles and the writing of books and stuff would be harder to set up, since the player doesn't occupy a location and so on.  We'll see about those -- I'm not morally against having people play them, it's just the time constraints as usual.

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Zonk

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Re: various things
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2002, 08:19:00 am »

In the status description screen,you can see the attributes of
the varius materials like bone,muscle,skin and the varius body
parts of the race of the player....but,in the game,there are other
materials....Why not add a sort of "in-game encyclopedia"with info
about materials like steel and varius other things?

For example,it would be cool to have info about steel,currently
the only weapon material.


The "in game"encyclopedia could also tell you how many creatures
are there in in the current universe,how many creature died from the
birth of the universe,the most dangerous place in the world(were
more players died)and MANY other things.

Of course it would be a sort "debug"feature.

I remember that about a month ago we had random materials like Red
Granite,Glass and Diamond...

By the way:If would we cool if we could have again other materials...
currently the only thing that would make the difference would be
durability and weight.Maybe weapons of heavier materials will make
more damage,especcialy if they are blunt...think to a gold mace

Some "stock"testing materials:

Steel:Like now...the stronger standard material...altough in the
Middle Ages,if i remember well,they used IRON because the did not
know how to make steel alloys(They only knew Bronze and Brass if im
right)
Iron
Bronze(alloy Copper+Tin)
Brass( alloy Copper+Zinc)
Silver
Mithril
Gold
Titanium
Copper
Stone
Wood:Generic wood...i know varius woods from varius trees have
different weight and durability
Glass


Of course,when the game generates the material for weapons,some
materials should be rarer than others.

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Harlander

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Re: various things
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2002, 09:19:00 am »

Oo! Would wood be described as the flesh of a tree? Then if some ent or other animate tree encountered a town, it'd see its slain brethren all around and go on a rampage!

I was wondering, as well, if creatures could have substances other than blood as a circulatory fluid, or even more than one circulatory system. Can the game do different internal pressures for such fluids?

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Demon

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Re: various things
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2002, 12:49:00 pm »

Best of all would be random flesh consistancies!  You could have the scaly (or hairy since its NOT a reptile) ice dragon skin, which would be much harder than human skin for example!   Or weapons made out of teeth and bones of large beasties!  Then when wolly mammoths walk into primitive villages they'd see bits of their bodies all around and go on a rampage!

Oh yeah, and as far as metals go dont forget about oricalcum!

[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: Demon ]

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Toady One

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Re: various things
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2002, 06:16:00 pm »

I guess that in-game encyclopedia would fit in with that request Harlander made a while ago for running stats on world populations and so on.

I was reading some sort of Scandanavian history website -- I think they knew how to stick at least some carbon into iron, but not in the exact right proportions to make an ideal steel.

Anyway, I need to make a materials editor before I make the motif editor, so there should be manymany stock materials in the game for the Reptiles release.

Heavy weapons already cause more damage depending on material.  Since there's only one material, it just isn't so noticeable right now :)  The materials also support different sorts of edges (another thing besides durability and weight that is implemented), but again, there's only one material so the fact that most types of stone can't support as good an edge as steel, ETC. just isn't important right now.

Material rarity is one of those things that depends on the world structure...  it might have to wait until ores and mining and all that, since we'll at least need abstract mineral veins/locations for the rarity numbers to make any sense.

He he -- yeah, wood is going to be stored much like a species material (with all of the rampage perks that entails :)), but for some stranger scenarios, have tree-like sessile lifeforms (Star Flight!) stored the same way as walking creatures will be very handy.  It would be a little more natural to awaken the trees and have them walk around if they are stored this way (than as, say, items)...  and abstract creatures could be used to make endless fields of living stone pillars that turn into ooze and try to engulf you if you talk too loud.

The paragraph for Harlander's circulatory substances question:  lessee...  at this moment, a creature can have any substance at all for blood.  Right now, a creature could have more than one circulatory system (in the sense of having multiple hearts and aortas and things in different areas of the body), but they'd all use the same circulatory substance -- it wouldn't be too hard to alter that, but like anything else it would have to wait for me to finish all of those other thing :)  I hadn't actually implemented differing blood pressures at all yet.  Blood pressure is currently just expressed as a fraction of the total blood you have left in your body.  That would be trivial to change I guess (just add a variable, and then multiply how fast you are bleeding by it :)).  Maybe I should wait on this kind of thing until I have projectiles -- the refined player would not be able to fully appreciate blood pressure until it affects the trajectory of neck-hole spray, I think.

I had weapons made out of things Way back before I added OpenGL...  I had to remove them because of some technical problems, but they should see a triumphant return sometime -- I think they might fit in best with the clothing release, since the clothing will most likely be made out of such things.

I have random flesh attributes already -- that's part of the motifs.  It just isn't very apparent, because my mammal skins are all roughly equivalent (is that a pun?  ugh...)  Even now, some mammal bones are easier to break than others.

Oricalcum...  google just sends me to theories-about-atlantis sites, mostly in spanish.  Someone else said it was what you get when you focus elemental essences or something.  A magical material, or material for the Art Bell show?

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Demon

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Re: various things
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2002, 11:46:00 am »

Oricalcum is a magical metal made by the atlanteans (cant spell that!).  Its some thing like mercury mixed with gold and something else.  It was extremely rare and "glittered like fire."  They might have used it as some energy source or something also...
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Demon

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Re: various things
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2002, 05:42:00 am »

There arnt any knees in Armok!  Joints are pretty vurnable in real life, so much so that some people specifically target them over other body parts in a fight.  But theres never any joint damage in Armok or if there is its just upper leg and maybe it happens to be there...

Now that the player variations are shown will we be able to see all the horrible, bloody gashed covering our bodies?    :D

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Toady One

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Re: various things
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2002, 09:46:00 am »

I've had the joint body building block type ready to go for a long time -- it's just like teeth and claws...  one of those things that hasn't made it in yet.  It was kinda hidden on the future pages, but it has been there since the beginning:

"Twists and Sprains:  Ligaments, tendons, and joints should also exist and be subject to damage."

He he he.  Nothing like adding something in that makes crippled players even more common  :)

Well, you can't see all the bloody gashes now, but the way I stored player variations it is now a definite possibility.  I'd just have to draw them in -- you could even have scars that stay there forever, and blackened pits for rotted-out eyes...  it's all really easy to do.  Zombie players would look hideous.  For non-player creatures, I have a few options:

1) use decals
2) realize their variations when they are damaged
3) realize their variations all of the time

1 is slower.  2 is strange because if you hit somebody, their fur/eyes/etc. would suddenly change to the proper color (or I could just copy the species texture over and pretend it is the creature's individual colors).  3 is (very) memory expensive.  It's the typical balance between speed, memory, and sloppiness.  I actually haven't had memory problems just letting every creature have their own individual texture all of the time, but I'm not sure how close to the limit it is.  I'll make it an option sometime, because it looks great when all of the creatures have their proper features.

I've finished all of my grading responsibilities this morning, so I'm going to try to finish universe save/load today.  Soon I can start making reptiles and insects and things that aren't steel.  The editors will be annoying, but it'll be good to finally move away from all of this technical programming and get back to the guts of the game.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Toady One ]

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Demon

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Re: various things
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2002, 10:27:00 am »

Why not just cheat every creatures (of the same race) fur color, etc. to the same and then show wounds and such on everything?  (Yes, I know that would make Armok slightly less detailed...  but you have to draw the line somewhere!)
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Toady One

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Re: various things
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2002, 10:42:00 am »

That's what I meant by using decals, I think.  Either I use one set of textures and then draw decal triangles with a little blood texture over them (slower), or I copy the textures to each creature and draw the wounds there (lotsa memory).  Or did you mean something else?
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Demon

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Re: various things
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2002, 01:47:00 pm »

Well, you make all the creatures look exactaly the same, with no variation.  Then you just have the blood texture for their muscle underneeth and where nessessary you show that instead of the local skin stuff.  That might be what you mean by the memory eating version.  That could also make severs and such prettier, becasue right now they just turn red but instead they could show the muscle texture.
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Toady One

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Re: various things
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2002, 02:32:00 pm »

Oh, maybe we're on totally different pages :)  Not showing the skin and showing a muscle texture underneath would be more like for corpse processing, where the skin is totally gone.  I thought you meant, say, a moderate slashing wound to the upper body, which could just be represented by a large blood-colored swath drawn across the upper body skin texture, which would be otherwise intact.  Removing textures entirely (say for skinning or dehairing or balding) would probably be best done like you described, and that wouldn't be a big burden on memory or speed.  Actually, balding could be done more gradually, like the slashing wound...  so you can feel your character's pain as the head hair texture slowly recedes...  there's a quest motive.

There are pieces of the future pages that discuss creatures trailing their own dirty guts behind them on the ground when they are bifurcated...  that shall be an interesting challenge as well.  Certain undead might try to club and strangle people with their own eternally rotting guts...  the visuals will be an added bonus if I can keep my system general.

Hmmm...  if I do odor well an undead detection spell won't be quite as valuable I guess...

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Harlander

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Re: various things
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2002, 01:25:00 am »

Exactly how memory-draining do you expect option 3 of the detail options to be?
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Toady One

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Re: various things
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2002, 09:51:00 am »

Lessee...  I believe stored textures come out of video memory, so that's the pool we're talking about.  An average creature right now takes 128*128*3*2 + 32*32*3...  98304 + 3072...  101376.  That's what the little calculator utility in Windows says.  That's for one creature.  So if you have 100 creatures running around, it would eat up about 10 megs of video memory.  That's probably not prohibitive on more modern cards, although there's going to be plenty of other things to eat up the space later.  Also, there are times when you get more than 100 creatures.  Maybe the game could set an upper limit -- say, 10 or 100 or 200 or 500 or whatever.  If another creature pops up past that number, then it just won't get individual variations (or displayed wounds, etc.).  This way, even people without lots of memory on their cards can have individual creature variations in many situations (ie, most wilderness encounters, etc.), just not in large towns.
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