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[ravensgrace]

Grow up, Othob.  Your opinions are certainly welcome, but your abusive posts are not.  I don't plan on discussing the actual mod here.  I'll create a new thread for the mod.  However, this is still a valid suggestion thread, I simply renamed it because TOAD_RATING no longer fits.

I also suggest you go to the main DF Suggestions page and read what Toady wrote.

[ravensgrace]

Silver,

I apologize that I somehow overlooked this post until now, and only noticed it while looking for updates to the suggestion list.  I appreciated your candor, etiquette, and open-mindedness.  Thanks for the contribution!

I think that dwarf fortress could be a great game for children, if they get past the interface hurdle, because they'll find it easier to fill in the ASCII with imagination. This game is also great to train them in handling emergent complexity.

I couldn't agree more, especially about their imagination and the emergent complexity of this game.  (One of the reasons I enjoy playing.)  In fact, I don't see the interface as a hurdle for them, as it might be for us.  As Chthonic wrote in his post, "Children are learning machines."

However, I absolutely can't think of anything that could shock or otherwise harm children. If anything, a more realistic but not visually explicit description of the results of violence ought to be a very good method to let them learn about consequences, like the death of a pet is a good way to learn mourning. I think that dwarves falling asleep instead of having mangled limbs from cave-ins caused by the player would be a worse way to learn responsibility.

Agreed.  Another reason I wanted to introduce DF to my children was the realistic consequences of various actions.  In fact, I could think of very few things that needed changing.  Excessive torture being one change, but that is easily remedied with the ETHIC tags already present.

[G-Flex]

I still don't understand the thought process involved that leads to thinking that a given child can understand all the mechanics and abstract presentation involved, to the point that he can reasonably navigate the game and understand what's going on, and can intuitively understand things represented only by ASCII characters which must be individually observed and examined, yet CANNOT apply this imaginative ability and understanding to body parts on the ground, or dead creatures, or combat.

And no, a change wouldn't be as simple as "let us disable body parts in the RAWs". None of us know how complicated it would be to permit that. Just look at the dev logs and see the kind of trouble Toady has to deal with even when implementing something that might appear, to us, as something trivial; in programming something as complex as this, damn near nothing is trivial.

I honestly don't feel that there is any content in this game too rough for a child capable of enjoying the game.

This is a more concise way of saying a lot of what I'm saying, so I figured I'd call attention to it.

[ravensgrace]

I still don't understand the thought process involved that leads to thinking that a given child can understand all the mechanics and abstract presentation involved, to the point that he can reasonably navigate the game and understand what's going on, and can intuitively understand things represented only by ASCII characters which must be individually observed and examined, yet CANNOT apply this imaginative ability and understanding to body parts on the ground, or dead creatures, or combat.

For anyone that has experienced dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of movies or books over their lifetime it can be difficult to understand.  I was in the exact same position with the birth of my first child, so I sympathize.

Ask a group of children to draw a simple object.  Those that have never seen that object can only draw how they imagine it might look, which usually looks nothing like the actual object.  Of course, this increases with younger children and more complex objects.  Children can certainly apply their imagination and understanding to everything, but it's limited by their life experience.

For example, if the closest thing resembling a dwarf little Jimmy has ever seen is an elf from the Keebler commercials then he isn't going to begin envisioning dwarves from Boatmurdered based on his limited experiences.  After further input from various life experiences and sources he's going to begin seeing a different picture.

[ravensgrace]

For those interested, the mod now has a thread.

[G-Flex]

So you're saying a child as old as nine or ten can keep track of every single abstract thing in DF, but because he's never seen an actual human body being dismembered, he won't understand or be disturbed by the thought?

I know what you're saying, but it works both ways. Children have extremely active imaginations and are often very GOOD at being affected by abstract representations of things. I remember as a young child being kind of disturbed myself by very simplistic and even comical representations of violent things.

Also, you say that kids won't have any sort of issue with {Urist McBabyDwarf's Head} because they've never been directly exposed to beheaded infants before, yet they'll understand and be able to work with things like querns, screw pumps, fictional crops, a couple dozen types of rock they've never heard of, and various other things which either don't exist in reality or that the kid has never seen before in his life?

[catpaw]

So you're saying a child as old as nine or ten can keep track of every single abstract thing in DF, but because he's never seen an actual human body being dismembered, he won't understand or be disturbed by the thought?

I know what you're saying, but it works both ways. Children have extremely active imaginations and are often very GOOD at being affected by abstract representations of things. I remember as a young child being kind of disturbed myself by very simplistic and even comical representations of violent things.

Also, you say that kids won't have any sort of issue with {Urist McBabyDwarf's Head} because they've never been directly exposed to beheaded infants before, yet they'll understand and be able to work with things like querns, screw pumps, fictional crops, a couple dozen types of rock they've never heard of, and various other things which either don't exist in reality or that the kid has never seen before in his life?

G-Flex by all love, I don't think this is the right place (forum) to talk about how a parent should raise his kid, and what to expose or not to expose it to, and when is the right time for exposure. This is a decision we are not here to judge. He asked if and how the game engine could help him, and we answered. End of the story, or?...

[ravensgrace]

G-Flex, your discussion has been moved here.

I'll respond there soon.

<edited for clarity>

[G-Flex]

G-Flex by all love, I don't think this is the right place (forum) to talk about how a parent should raise his kid, and what to expose or not to expose it to, and when is the right time for exposure. This is a decision we are not here to judge. He asked if and how the game engine could help him, and we answered. End of the story, or?...

I know that and I'm not telling him how to raise his kid. I'm disagreeing with him over what children do and don't understand, and trying to explain what I think is a logical contradiction in what he's saying, and why I think his suggestion isn't compatible with the game and wouldn't make a huge amount of sense. I'm not trying to say what children SHOULD be exposed to, or when. I apologize if I'm making that appearance.

[i2amroy]

5. What does that have to do with anything?  Higher post counts (generally) mean time spent not playing, and I played long before registering to discuss a game I enjoy.

I just wanted to correct you here. Generally higher posts do not mean time spent not playing, but instead means one of two things.
1. The person is playing enough that they are encountering things that they do not know about, and are asking lots of questions, or...
2. The person is playing and has gathered enough gameplay experience that they can now answer the questions created by newcomers.
Either way, this means that the person is playing a lot. I have actually discovered that the times that people have the least amount of posts is in the middle, when people have discovered that they can play dwarf fortress, but have not came to the point where it consumes their soul yet.

[Granite26]

1. The person is playing enough that they are encountering things that they do not know about, and are asking lots of questions, or...
2. The person is playing and has gathered enough gameplay experience that they can now answer the questions created by newcomers.
Either way, this means that the person is playing a lot. I have actually discovered that the times that people have the least amount of posts is in the middle, when people have discovered that they can play dwarf fortress, but have not came to the point where it consumes their soul yet.

Or has reached the point in their fortress where the decision making frequency has been reduced to once every other post read...

[ravensgrace]

i2amroy,

I'm sending my response via PM to avoid further off-topic discussion here.  Continue the discussion there or create a new thread in the appropriate section of the forum and PM me the link.

Granite,

I'll be happy to send you copies of any responses.  Let me know via PM if you'd like them.