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Author Topic: HUGE TOPIC ABOUT THE EDITOR + NEW RACES  (Read 11397 times)

Zonk

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HUGE TOPIC ABOUT THE EDITOR + NEW RACES
« on: July 27, 2002, 08:19:00 am »

claw:Smooth triangle 1.6 5.0

tiger x60
frostgiant x173
hillgiant x75
cyclop x75

I have examined the new version...and thinked many things...
First of all,the good news...I have done and im continuing doing
these races:
"Generic"Bovine/Bull:i would have liked to do a cladeogram for them
but...Well,they have two castes...COW and BULL.
Tiger
Cyclop
Hill Giant
Frost Giant
Fire Giant
Troll.
I have sent them to Toadyone in case he wants to try or upload them
on the site.I HOPE HE DOES...even if they aren't very good...I
will make them better with time...For example the "internal"
body parts of some giants have not been adjusted in size.
I will do this when i have more time.
The giant races are the easiest to edit because they were made from
humans.I modified the sizes of body parts,colors and
melting and boiling point of the materials.The "tigers"
were made from "naked mode dogs".I also tried doing
snakes using the "serpent form"and ALMOST succeded.And i tried
creating an "ectopod"form to make spiders by editing ants.
But when i change the ants from "complex castes"to "gender",
they all their extra limbs...It's hard.I managed to do a "spider"
species but then deleted it because it was not to cool.
And cladeograms seem not to work.I thought you included
some of them,like rabbit for example.

Also,claws ALMOST work now!A dragon claw easily sever almost anything!
BUT...I said almost because you can only use "claw attacks"
as "default attacks!
IF YOU DELETE THE TOES/FINGER FROM THE COMBAT OPTIONS
AND THEN RE-ADD THEM,YOU WILL NO LONGER CLAW WITH THEM!
You will kick...Also...claw attacks use the KICKING skill..
not the CLAWING one...This is another bug.
If you want a race to be able to claw,you must set it in the
"DEFAULT ATTACKS"section of the editors.THIS IS BAD!
TOADYONE...Remember to add the possibility to always
use claw attack.This means that,when we choose a body
part that has growths usable in combat,we sohuld get
the option to choose what growth use.So one could
use his toes to "kick"if he wants...but i and most others
will use them to claw!

I think it would be REALLY GOOD if there was a command to
multiply/divide ALL sizes by a certain number.This would been
useful,especcialy to me,since i have done the "giants"species.
The "resize"command is useful...but i would like a multiplier/
divisor also.And i would like a copy/paste function in the
editor...it would be useful for persons like me who have to
do many similar body parts.


Also,in the "status description",at the "Brief Description of
Species",a lot of creatures are listed as "gigantic".But if one
reads the "detailed descriptions"of gender/castes,one notices
that this is not always true.
And....most creatures ARE TOO SMALL!Human weight,on the
average,25 kg.
IT LOOKS LIKE *ALL* CREATURE WEIGHTS HAVE BEEN DIVIDED BY 3.5555555.
FOR EXAMPLE TITANS ARE 9 MG NOW.BEFORE THEY WERE 32.
Maybe the problem is in the "creature materials density".
It would be easier to guess if we could have a written
number that indicates the creature height.

I also created a race of "steel humans".They are human that
have steel instead of skin,flesh and bone.I tried them...i
thought they would have been VERY hard to kill...But i did not
notice any important difference in combat..Strange...
So i deleted them.But i was thinking...so the game does not
take in account the stats/attributes of the material that
is hit?So,for example,the scales of the dragon give NO EXTRA
PROTECTION?Also...i did not known that scales did not regenerate
(heal).


AND,VERY IMPORTANT...in the material editor,you should remove the
10.0 limit!At the moment,ALL METALS have a density of 10...
So that means steel is as heavy as gold....I suppose density
is in the kg/decimeter cube format,right?So gold should have
a density of 19,something and steel 7,something.
And,since steel has a default hardness of 10,at the moment
it is impossible to do a metal harder than it,like adamantite...
Please correct this!By the way,there are some standard materials
like skin that have a default moistness/roughness above 10...
If you try to modify them,they become 10...
Also...now we have "alloys"as normal materials...think to...Steel
and Bronze...how will other alloys be handled in future?Will
there be an "Alloy"material class for them?Or will they
be created by the game?

ANOTHER *VERY*important thing is that,if im right,the editor
does not allow to edit possible grasp.This is probably related
to the bug that does NOT delete a grasp when his body part
is severed.For example,i had characters in surviver mode who
got an hand severed and still had the grasp of that hand.
Maybe grasps are collegated to the "movement group"of body parts?
It seems not to me...Please add the possibility to put grasps
in the editor!


Also,this is normal but read it...try changing the upper
and lower body of a quadruped from SAC to APPENDAGE and see what
happens to the model of the lower body in the game.
The lower/rear body RISES UP!I think this has to do with the
"posture"section...but i cannot manage to use it well!
Another bug of models is that,in game,if you turn around the
camera in a certain way,the MODEL DISSAPEARS.And when you turn
from window to full screen,the models loose texture.
Also the "item"models OFTEN dissapear...especcialy the body part
ones.

For this i bug i had to delete the "croccodile"race that i
created...

LAST...WE NEED MORE POSSIBLE MODELS!FOR EXAMPLE I WOULD REALLY
LIKE THE MODELS FOR HORNS,WINGS AND THE LIKE!I ALSO WOULD
LIKE THE MODELS FOR INTERNAL ORGANS LIKE HEARTS AND BRAINS.
At the moment,to do horns im using the "spike"building
block and the"point" model.If i use the "Horn"building block...
I get VERY short horns...even if i modify the "Lenght to Width"
value.
And im putting them as "adjunt"body parts,not growths,since
there are problems with using growths in attacks(i talked
about them above).And you can't use models for growths...
We need MODELS for GROWTHS!And models and building blocks
for cones!

I also would like the motif and forms for invertebrates like
worms.Will we have to wait for water to have creatures
like octopuses,lobsters and amphibians?

and,at last...a CRASH bug!
If you try to play a race that has the "Has soul/mental
attributes)?"flag set to NO...the game crashes!
The same if you try to play a race that has a body
part without tissues...but this is a "feature",i think.

For the rest,the editors ARE VERY COOL!Yes,they are a hard to use...
But not impossible :-) The only problem is that i just cannot
use the model editor?By the way,did any of you also create
a "almost complete/playable"race?If yes...please send it to Toadyone
or me(my email is davides88@yahoo.it).
I really like to know what strange creatures spelguru and
our Great God Of Kobolds have created :-)
By the way,KOBOLD ARE COOL!They have nice deformations and
posture!They are very kobold-like!Goblins are also nice
but i prefer them green...I think i will edit goblins to make
orcs.
Humans are also well done...except for some things like they
have about 50 teeths :-) And they have no "rib cage".
Also,someone talked about things like "knees"and "elbows".
I mean joints.I noticed there IS a "joint"building block...
but i don't think it is easy to use.


I also think it would be very cool to hair display again...

For the next release...could you explain us better what it
means that there will be "biomes"and "ecosystems"?I studied
them at school...but i can't understand how they will be
in Armok...every creature will have his place,right?
And plants will be found ALMOST all the world...they won't have
their "kingdom/empire/dominiom"like the other species,right?
About ecosystems...the editor does not allows to choose a creature
diet.I have also read that you will had
When you do ecosystems,plese add more terrain types...Like
swamp and desert.And,also,you wrote you will do abstract
clusters...they also look cool...for example clusters of ant
or rock(usable as weapons..not thrown).But will the ant/worms/
beetles clusters actually have a species file?Of course
i talk about SMALL beetles/ant/worms...And remember to create
a stock intelligent plany race that can move.
AND FIX THE HEALING RATE FOR TISSUES!If i put an healing rate
of 1000000,it says it heals "very slowly".But if i put 20000 it
says "at an average rate"...we need to be be able to make
tissues that regenerate super fast...especcialy me to
make trolls stronger and better!

Also,remember that you said that you will enable CRUSHING
when you will enable vegetation...so we can crush fruits...
and bodies!

For thoose who don't known,the plan for the next version is:

/Vegetation
|Biomes
|Ecosystems
|Ground Debris of All Kinds (rocks, twigs, worms, beetles, ants, etc.) -- this will require "abstract" item and creature clusters
|Improved Travel Interface
|Viewing the World Map
|Fix some hairy plant bugs (yet to be created bugs, but there will be some)
\-----"The Game Finally Has Trees" Release ---------------

Since Toadyone has his "Plan"..I also have one..this is the
list,probably in order of time,of what im trying to do:

/Write A LOT more things in the manual im doing...including
|help on the editor.Though i cant understand well some things
|like the "posture"of body parts.
|Create some horned creature...rhinoceros?.Or maybe
|minotaurs?But there are problems with putting horns
|on the front of the head of the creature...the horn gets
!displayed hanging down
|Get my school books and use them to add new materials to the
|stock file(i will need that the 10 limit is removed),plus
|i think i will add my version of mithril and adamantium.And,
|of course,IRON.We have steel.But not iron.And a stone material
|other than obsidian.
|Manage to do a a fair-looking spider,or...A SCORPION!!!
|One or more dinosaur races.With or without the humanoid form.
|For example,t-rex,velociraptors,brontosauruses...

\-----Zonk's Incredible Plan-------------------

By the way...Toadyone,remember that you said that,in the magic
version,you will also had some other things like TEMPERATURE!
Since i set that frost giant blood boils at low temperatures...
It will be fun for them to go in the desert :-)
And remember that there is still some cleanup to do..
especcialy you should do the more important things...i copied
here things from your "cleanup"list that i consider more important
than others:

More Text Messages (Like When You Wake Up From Sleeping)
Clear Statement of Creature Height
Tissues and Some Parts Have No Weight
Put Containers Back In
Can't Stop Applying Pressure to a Wound
Make Those Circles Surrounding Creatures Different Sizes
Hit Location Should Also Respect Facing of the Target
Weapon Fragments Weigh as Much as the Original Weapon
Damaged Weapons Weigh as Much as the Original Weapon
Missing Messages for Weapon Breakage
Missing Messages for Certain Weapon Drops
Certain Actions Should Interfere With the Application of Pressure
(eg If You Attack With the Pressure Applier)
Sometimes You Can't Move Through Certain Spaces, Even Though Nothing
Is Blocking You
Vision Blockage Has Been Completely Disabled
With That, Hearing Messages Were Also (Mostly) Disabled
Energy Costs For Actions Are Very Arbitrary (In a Bad Way) In Some
Cases

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SkeleTony

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Re: HUGE TOPIC ABOUT THE EDITOR + NEW RACES
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2002, 11:06:00 am »

Correct me if I am mistaken but isn't the Lovecraft quote :"...In stranger eons even death may die."?

Okay I am nitpicking but most of that Armok editor stuff goes right over my head.I am a lazy bastard!I just want a model/creature editor where I can visually select a torso or thorax or whatever, mess with it's shape and size by dragging "handles"/points, then select limbs and appendages by clicking on them from a visual list, dragging them to whatever body I selected and placing them wherever etc.I basically want to create 3D models with the same ease as I can draw a 2D creature with pencil and paper.

What's funny is I used to hold these workshops where I taught teens how to draw comics(exaggerated anatomy, dynamic posing etc.) and I was pretty good at doing that but when it comes to learning how to do new things myself(like learn how to use all of these 3D illustration progs I have)...I am just pathetic.

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Alanor

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Re: HUGE TOPIC ABOUT THE EDITOR + NEW RACES
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2002, 12:48:00 pm »

I just want to say to Zonk:

Thats an awesome list of info you have made up, and your immense effort is a tribute to
Armok. :-)

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Alanor
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Toady One

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Re: HUGE TOPIC ABOUT THE EDITOR + NEW RACES
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2002, 02:05:00 pm »

He he he.  Now I have something to read, since I'm still waiting for my books to come in the mail.

I'll respond to that in a moment...  first I'm going to upload the creatures I received to a new page for submissions, after I check them out.

By the way, I updated that plan about a few days ago:

/Temperature, Average Rainfall, Mist and Fog, etc.
|Vegetation
|Biomes
|Regional Character (craggy, cheerful, gloomy, etc.)
|Ecosystems
|Ground Debris of All Kinds (rocks, twigs, worms, beetles, ants, etc.)
|Various Interactions with the Ground
|Crushing Items
|Improved and Restricted Travel Interface
|Encounters, Stealth, and Ambush
|Fix some hairy plant bugs (yet to be created bugs, but there will be some)
\-----"The Game Finally Has Trees" Release --

Note the crushing :)

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Toady One

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Re: HUGE TOPIC ABOUT THE EDITOR + NEW RACES
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2002, 03:38:00 pm »

Skeletony (the short reply),

I'm pretty much there myself.  I'll be damned if I'm going to type in another 52 point, 101 triangle model by hand.  There are limits to what I will endure.  The editor will be enhancimified.

Zonk (the long reply),

You should probably hold off on cladeograms -- they are going to be fully implemented for the ecosystems release.  I didn't get a chance to do rabbits or anything else.  These things will come with the next major version (not the fix release I'm putting up tomorrow).

Why didn't the internal organs get resized?  If you just take the human, then go down to the bottom of the Caste page, there's a place where it says "Goal Size" and "Resize".  Humans are roughly 5500-6000.  This will handle all of the internal organs and body parts simultaneously.  Then you can resize individually to give things different proportions.

Indeed, a size multiplier would be good.

And copy/paste...  that has come up before.  I would have liked it when I had to give the humans all those toes...  <shudder>

I've written all of the bugs down...

I'm not sure if I changed it everywhere, but the descriptions of sizes should be fixed.  That will be put up tomorrow.

Weights are tricky...  before creatures used to weigh a lot because their hair was overweighted.  Now it is messed up again.  It will take some time to get it right...  the calculations are nasty.  I think the material densities are correct.

The durability settings work, they just don't seem to affect combat damage as much as they should.  It is a matter of more tweaking, but things made fully out of steel (including the internal organs) are fairly hard to kill.

Scales should grow back (I think?) HAIR should definitely grow back.  Right now, the game treats a severed hair like a severed arm, and it will be gone forever.

The 10.0 material limit is definitely on the way out.  I don't know why I put that in in the first place.

I haven't really sorted out alloys and chemical reactions (combustion, etc.) and all of that.  It would probably be preferable if alloys were created from their base components, so that critters could make them instead of mining "bronze" and "steel".

You can edit grasps in the editor.  They are under interactions.  They are called "contacts" (which makes more sense in the game than in the editor, since in the actual game they are more general than grasps).

The full screen texture bug is fixed now.

When you change a sac to an appendage, the "length to width" variable comes into play.  For instance, if you have ANY appendage, and the length to width is set to "3", then it will stretch out the Z coordinate of the model by 3 times (and rescale so that the overall volume is unchanged).  Is that what's going on?  Whenever a model changes shape, the game automatically recalculates the postures.

I'll be making more models as I need them...  I'll need quite a few for the next release.  Models for growths?  If you have a claw large enough to require a model, you should make it an adjunct body part, or a full body part...  for dragons this might require changing things around, by making the toes full body parts, then making claws adjuncts on those.  I guess I'll eventually need to model growths, to do things like long hair, so maybe the claw should remain a growth...

I can only do so much at once -- I was thinking that water creatures would wait for water.  Amphibians (TOADS!) and crabs might come earlier.

He he he.  I didn't add any support for "no soul" or "no body" at all.  I didn't even test them.  Body parts should have tissues.  When I make the editor crash-proof, I'll fix that.

Posture is a little tricky.  Basically, Armok looks at the creature and assigns it an initial stance.  Every body part in this initial stance is considered to be pointing "up", no matter how it actual looks.  This means they get the vector (0,0,1) -- that points up (in the positive Z direction).  When you assign a direction to a body part, you give it a new vector, relative to its old "up" vector.  Once I put the preview picture in, this should be easier to manage.

He he.  I couldn't decide whether to make goblins green or gray, so they are both...  and sometimes mottled!

I don't know why I keep putting off human ribs.  I'm just a big loser that way.

You can make hair display by increasing its density.  If you have more than density 5000, and the hair is "global", it will show the hair color instead of the skin.

Okay...

Biomes:

First we lay out altitude.  Then we lay out temperature and weather.  Then any other weird world-specific things (areas of evil, etc.).  Then the game decides what kind of vegetation lives there (trees?  grass?  cacti?).  This is based mainly on temperature, rainfall, and soil quality, although I should read more in my books to refresh my memory.  Those will be biomes to Armok.  Basically how the vegetation is set up.

With biomes, there will be many new terrain types.  The only thing missing will be actual water, and "sharp" features like canyons, cliffs and caves.

Ecosystems:

These will be the critters in the vegetation.  Ecosystems will exist in each biome (so the Western Forest will have one, and the adjoining Great Plains will have another).  There can be sub-ecosystems -- for instance, suppose there is a lake in the forest.  It would have its own ecosystem, but the larger forest ecosystem would also contribute creatures.

Technically, ecosystems will be made up of clades.  Each clade will have a population, and a vague place in the food web.  As you encounter particular species from the clades, the seeds that generate them will be stored.  Aside from generating the creature itself, these seeds will also create its place in the food web, and so on.

Yeah, plants will be almost everywhere.  My goal for the ecosystems release is to make the world feel alive, and to make you feel lost and helpless and subject to being devoured by large beasts.

There are no diets now, so ecosystems will be set up in a general manner for now.  That is, clades will be assigned a place on the food web, but particular creatures will be ignored.  Unless I actually decide to put that in now.

Abstract creature clusters will NOT be a species file.  They will simply point to a clade from the ecosystem.  If the character were to walk over to an ant colony, for instance, and pick up one of the ants, the particular ant itself would be generated fully, and the whole colony would be given that species seed.  So at that point, if the ant excreted a poisonous substance from its flesh, the player would get sick and die.  By storing the species seed, the game would allow the player to meet these ants later on, perhaps when he or she has a torch.

If you wanted to, you could create a small ant with the creature editor.  If it were set to not have actual civilizations (something I'll do later), then it could be incorporated into ecosystems and creature clusters.

The healing rate is fine -- it is just labeled poorly.  I just relabeled it "Healing Time".  Smaller numbers are faster.  The number is basically how many one second intervals it takes for the part to heal one degree of damage.  So if healing rate is set at 1, your wounds will close very quickly.

Yeah, I haven't updated the plan for the magic release, because I haven't finished the vegetation release.  There are many things planned for the release that might not have made it into the Plan yet.  Temperature effects will be done there.  I'm adding temperature now for the vegetation release, but not the actual effects.

I am quite aware of the clean up.  There are more things than appear on that list...
I have 137 clean up items remaining, and 83 code optimizations.  From your list, I've done only these already (as well as about 15 other things):

Missing Messages for Weapon Breakage
Missing Messages for Certain Weapon Drops

I'll get to the others in time.  There's just a lot to do.

Anyway, a fix release is coming up this Sunday.  I'm doing math this weekend, so I'm just about done with what is going into it.  There aren't many editor fixes (just some important ones with the tracts).  I mostly focused on general problems (for some strange reason). Here is the log:

LOG

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Zonk

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Re: HUGE TOPIC ABOUT THE EDITOR + NEW RACES
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2002, 01:04:00 pm »

the things on the upper part of the message are a mistake...they were to remind me the size-compared-to human of giants.And the claw things remembered me the claw stats of tigers.
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