Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: New version UI  (Read 871 times)

xeelee4

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
New version UI
« on: September 12, 2007, 10:06:00 pm »

Hey all, quick question about the new version: will the UI get any attention?

Personally, I'd rather see some tweaks to the interface rather than a lot of the other changes that are being discussed...

Logged

Turgid Bolk

  • Bay Watcher
  • Tacticus Grandmaster
    • View Profile
    • http://...
Re: New version UI
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2007, 12:33:00 am »

As has been discussed many, many times elsewhere, the interface is bare-bones and just jury-rigged enough to be half-usable, and will remain that way. The reason is, the game is changing so much that any work on the interface will be outdated two months down the road. There are some small updates, f'rinstance the material selection screen.

Once the majority of functionality/gameplay is in, the interface will be made nice, I assume with full mouse support, and pretty graphs and stats, and easy access to the most common functions, &c.

Now it could definetly use improvement, but 'til then, it works, and after some practice you get used to it. Sorry to sound harsh, I've just seen it mentioned a few times already.  ;)

Logged
"This is an engraving of a Dwarf and a Mandrill Leather Skirt. The Dwarf is raising the skirt."
Multiplayer Adventure Mode, the (now defunct) DF roleplaying game.

xeelee4

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 12:42:00 am »

Thanks, Turgid. You don't sound harsh. I've just started visiting the forum and have only seen new features being discussed recently, rather than the interface. Glad to hear it's a 'known' issue.
Logged

Guilliman

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 05:20:00 am »

The only things that we need asap are shortening the list of materials when building something, which iirc is in the next release (for example, build road, and instead of having a list of
schist stone
schist stone
schist stone
schist stone
schist stone

we get this now,  which will improve things a lot on it's own, so i'm happy ^^
schist stone x5

Logged

Thallone

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 09:18:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Turgid Bolk:
<STRONG>Once the majority of functionality/gameplay is in, the interface will be made nice, I assume with full mouse support, and pretty graphs and stats, and easy access to the most common functions, &c.
</STRONG>

And ruin the charm of the game?

Logged

Savok

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2007, 09:39:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Thallone:
<STRONG>And ruin the charm of the game?</STRONG>

I agree. We all would like the UI to be improved and optimized a lot, but taking away the feel of the game would be very disappointing.
quote:
Originally posted by Turgid Bolk:
<STRONG>I assume with full mouse support</STRONG>

And that might actually make the game harder to play; there are some of use more adept with the keyboard than the mouse.

[ September 13, 2007: Message edited by: Savok ]

Logged
So sayeth the Wiki Loremaster!

Name Lips

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2007, 09:55:00 am »

I think the charm of the game could be preserved while making the UI a bit more consistant. I worked as a technical editor for several years, and many of my projects involved optimizing the layout and efficiency of software applications.

The main problem DF has is apparent inconsistency. While some aspects of the UI might make sense programatically, they make little apparent sense to the end user. For example, there are four -- FOUR -- different buttons for examing something in the world. V (for viewing a creature), K (for examining any object), Q (for examining a building) and T (for examining objects inside buildings).

To top that off, sometimes you use T to examine buildings instead of Q (like when you want to suspend or resume a road building job).

That could use a bit of cleaning up. What if there was just one key for examinging things, and you got a little readout on the right hand side about everything in the square. Objects contained within buildings could be indented two spaces underneith their building. So using the K key might look like this:

code:

Uluk Mordinkaan, Craftsdwarf
Craftsdwarf's Workshop (CLT)
  Obsidian Shortsword (x5)
  Stone Crafts (x25)
  Obsidian (x1)
  Oaken logs (x1)
Rakensan Utredin, Dog
Engraved Talc Floor


Then you could select the thing you're interested in and get the same screen you would have gotten with C/T/Q. Also notice the quantity information - why spam the screen with every single duplicate item? If you're curious about the relative qualities of the items, just select them and take a closer look.

The other annoying thing, and this is mentioned in the wiki, is the confusing options for scrolling up and down in lists. Sometimes it's the arrow/pgdwn/pgup keys, sometimes it's the +-*/ keys. And why, for heaven's sake, do you have to use BOTH sets of keys on the stockpile setup screen?

For virtually the entire game, SPACE will pull you one stage back from a series of menus. However, there are a couple of places (the item selection at the beginning and the manager job-search screen) where you have to hit the period instead, for absolutely no reason I can see.

Some features which seem useful turn out not to be quite as useful, like the food list. Sure, you can choose whether to cook or brew (or neither) your "ingredient" foods, but it can be confusing to new people who think that the Kitchen tab will show them all the food in the fortress. Prepared meals are absent, you only get cook and brew for options (not eat and process, so you could keep the dwarfs from eating certain raw foods before you cook them, or choose to process certain foods instead of brewing them). I was confused about how much food actually existed in my fortress until I discovered the "Other" category. Why is my most important indicator of food tucked away in a little, insignificant-looking "Other" category?

Anything that has to be justified with "you'll get the hang of it eventually" or "it makes sure only people who are really interested bother learning the game" shouldn't be there in the first place. It's a barrier that's preventing some people from understanding and enjoying the game, and that shouldn't happen.

You can see how my minor suggestions (or better thought-out alternatives, since these are just off the top of my head) could really simplify the process of playing the game, but wouldn't elminate the charm or style of the interface at all.

Logged

flight

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2007, 10:32:00 am »

Those are all excellent points, and I particularly agree with the "other" category of food. You never know how much of that is edible prepared meals and how much is inedible stuff like four, but I will defend the space bar to back up except for the material selection screen. The simple reason is that the space bar was chosen earlier to be the all-time backup key, while in that one circumstance it is necessary to type with the space bar in between search items. I agree it should be modified somehow to preserve consistency.
Logged

Solara

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2007, 10:39:00 am »

I  really like Name Lips suggestions.  :) Those are the kind of UI tweaks that I'd personally like to see - simple little things that would make playing much more intuitive without requiring any drastic changes.
Logged

Toady One

  • The Great
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bay12games.com
Re: New version UI
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2007, 02:53:00 pm »

The keys where you can't press space to exit are the ones where space is being used for string entry (you can search for more than one word to narrow down the list).  There might be other examples, but the two you mentioned are such screens.  There are other ways to handle it of course, but that's the reason.
Logged
The Toad, a Natural Resource:  Preserve yours today!

Savok

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 04:20:00 pm »

I like [q], [t], [k], and [v].

If I want to look at a single tile and its contents, [k] is good.
If I want to look at a creature, [v] is better than a [k] like interface, since there isn't a creature in every tile and it is much simpler to only have to get to a tile near a creature instead of the exact tile.
If I want to look at a building, [q] is better than [k] for the above reason and shouldn't be merged with [v] because that would make it very annoying to use when a lot of creatures are around.
If I want to look at the contents of a building, [t] is better than [k] and shouldn't be merged with [v] for the above two reasons, and shouldn't be merged with [q] because if I want to look at the contents of a building, it only requires one key whereas [q]->[somekey] requires two.

Logged
So sayeth the Wiki Loremaster!

TurnpikeLad

  • Bay Watcher
  • maybe this time
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2007, 07:53:00 pm »

I generally am OK with the interface, but I think the [v] menu should have an option for scrolling between similar entities, so if you select a dwarf you can cycle through all of your dwarves quickly by pressing (o) and (p) or something.  Objects could be classed by type so selecting a goblin would let you rotate through all members of the goblin civ. in the fortess area, selecting an elephant would let you rotate through the wild animals, or selecting a dog would let you go through tame animals.
Logged
Adon * Amil * Orethan

Veroule

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2007, 08:54:00 pm »

Toady has stated unequivocably, on many occasions, that the UI needs a lot of work.  He as also stated that much of the work on the UI would be wasted as he adds new functionality to the game.

Name Lips, actually pointed out a number of the direct flaws.  I also think think he/she hit on quite a few that actually are rather stable parts of the game.

One that was mentioned though I have to say is generally consistent the way Toady has done it.  That being when the map is displayed the arrows, home, end, pgup, pgdn move on the map while +-*/ move in the list.

The stockpile settings view is a great example of things gone wrong, because it really combines all the worst of DF's current interface in a location that is so data dependent it could be made to self build.  Currently the up and down arrows move the outermost level at all times, the right and left arrows select deeper or shallower levels for the secondary and tertiary levels.  The +/- is used to move up and down within the selected secondary or tertiary level.  It is just a plain mess, and even if new type is added the entire view could be self built for 10ms processing time at first launch.

I think perhaps after the current release it is time that Toady look at which views are stable enough to get overhauled for a better interface.  Even if they all don't get fixed, just seeing some cleaned up would be nice.

Stockpile Settings:
1. Always display sub levels, get rid of Enable and Disable
2. Up/Down arrow moves current selection in whatever column
3. Right/Left arrow switches columns as it down now.
4. Change colors some for beter visibility about active, inactive, and current selection.

Logged
"Please, spare us additional torture; and just euthanise yourselves."
Delivered by Tim Curry of Clue as a parody of the lead ass from American Idol in the show Psych.

Toady One

  • The Great
    • View Profile
    • http://www.bay12games.com
Re: New version UI
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2007, 09:07:00 pm »

I fixed the arrows a while ago.  I'm not sure what you mean as far as self-building goes.
Logged
The Toad, a Natural Resource:  Preserve yours today!

Reign on your Parade

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: New version UI
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2007, 01:27:00 am »

I think he means its pretty independent, a change to that menu ONLY effects that menu.
Logged
ou''re just as free to state your opinion as I am free to completely disregard it.