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Are the current sociopathic canabalistic elves better than before, or worse?

Elves have become the true and awesome avatars of Armok
- 71 (48.3%)
It's hard to be worse than the where...
- 18 (12.2%)
I like the idea, but the're unbalanced now.
- 41 (27.9%)
ARRGH THEY ARE EATING MY BRAIN AND I AM NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT
- 17 (11.6%)

Total Members Voted: 147


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Author Topic: Elves: better or worse?  (Read 4108 times)

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2008, 06:19:29 am »

If anyone's interested, the latest update done to the Martial Arts mod features an experimental ethic/religion modification that alters the races' relations somewhat. For example, I was able to gen a world where usually neutral races were actually neutral, and dark elves and goblins were at war with everyone else...
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Jisaan

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2008, 12:59:38 pm »

The new elves are great, but they need one or two tweaks.

First is just the ability to compromise. Whenever a peace treaty is made between humans and elves, it should come with certain conditions for each side. Well, okay, mostly the humans. If the elves are losing, the restrictions should be lax. If they're winning, they should be harsh. If the humans don't adhere to these conditions, they risk war, and depending on who would be more likely to win in a war, the elves may or may not retaliate at first, or allow changes to these limitations via diplomacy.

Also, in the middle of the war there should be certain compromises made on each side, really this time, so as to aid the possibility of making peace; The elves handing over corpses instead of eating them, and the usual decrease in tree cutting and animal slaughter for the humans.

Hopefully we'll see these in the diplomacy arc, but until then, I think elves are all but perfect as they are.

Also, I haven't seen anything contradictory in the elvish policies. They believe that animals have as much a right to live as sentient creatures, and as such view the slaughter of the former by the later as just that: A race vastly superior in organization, numbers, and all things to do with war mercilessly slaughtering defenseless races with no provocation.

So, they decide to act in the interests of these animals, being the only race with the means to effectively do so, while also being willing to do so. Because the humans are perfectly capable of defending themselves, and in their minds the ones who initiated the conflict, they have no concerns over going to war with them. And by their traditions, any casualties in this conflict should have their corpses salvaged of all useful resources. Including meat.

As for what they will accept in trades, I'd say that contrary to what one might expect, they'd actually accept crafts made of goblins and other sentient creatures, since they can defend themselves and no doubt had reason to go to war, but not animals, since more often than not it's slaughter as opposed to self defense, and they don't trust the humans to give accurate information. But of course, most of the other sentient races don't make a habit of producing such objects.

As for wood... They just seem to like trees for some reason. Presumably they eat plants, since they have to get food from somewhere, so I suppose it's more likely to be a practical interest than an idealistic one. Forests are the habitat for their animal friends, and whether or not they know it, also do a fair bit of CO2 scrubbing so as to produce breathable air, so maybe that's it. Or maybe it's purely selfish, and they don't like the other races destroying the one biome they know how to live in, and their favored building material.

Not sure why they don't just teach the other races to retrieve wood from trees their way, but rather than outright banning the cutting of trees, it makes sense that they limit the number so as to avoid clear cutting, which is exactly what they do.

Finally, their near suicidal mass assaults... I suppose this is unavoidable with such a long life span, but you'd think they'd limit their number of kids in the interest of population control... I guess they'd rather kill two birds with one stone, in an unusally accurate and ironic way, by using numbers to make up for their reliance on ineffective wooden weaponry and armor in war. Same end result anyway, a more or less constant population... At least, that's probably the idea. The numbers may need to be tweaked a bit for it to reach equillibrium.
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2008, 01:47:59 pm »

The thing is, they don't hold the animals/sentient beings/plants to be equals.  They consider it worse to kill an animal than a person, and absolutely incomprehensible to even think of killing a plant.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2008, 01:50:05 pm »

The thing is, they don't hold the animals/sentient beings/plants to be equals.  They consider it worse to kill an animal than a person, and absolutely incomprehensible to even think of killing a plant.

No they don't. They sell ropes, booze, and fruit. They accept them in trade.

They're fine with killing plants.
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Keiseth

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2008, 01:59:41 pm »

Do they still sell caged animals in trade? That's kind of odd, given how they start wars over the use of animals in labor.
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Tommy2U

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2008, 03:46:59 pm »

To limit the elf population explosion, they could be made far less fertile, or be fertile for a short period of their lives only.
As to limiting the number of existing elves, as they don't murder each other, they could commit suicides, offer themselves to be eaten by their animal friends, or transcend from this mortail coil or do something otherwise exotic. Those seem pretty elven ways to pass away.
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TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2008, 03:54:44 pm »

Well, the goblins manage to live darn-near-forever without swarming.

*p.s. oops, didnt realize there was a topic discussing that.
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Angry Lawyer

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2008, 04:09:54 pm »

The thing is, they don't hold the animals/sentient beings/plants to be equals.  They consider it worse to kill an animal than a person, and absolutely incomprehensible to even think of killing a plant.

No they don't. They sell ropes, booze, and fruit. They accept them in trade.

They're fine with killing plants.

One does not kill a tree by picking an apple.

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Jisaan

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2008, 05:28:17 pm »

The thing is, they don't hold the animals/sentient beings/plants to be equals.  They consider it worse to kill an animal than a person, and absolutely incomprehensible to even think of killing a plant.

I think it's not that they are more concerned about killing animals than sentient beings, it's the manner in which they are killed. If humans were kept as livestock and slaughtered for food after being stripped of all defenses, they would be equally intolerant of whoever was doing it. The reason they don't mind going to war with humans is because humans can defend themselves, and in their mind, they have to be stopped. Of course this is just speculation.

One does not kill a tree by picking an apple.
-Angry Lawyer

It's more the fact that they accept those items in trade, when they know that humans will do far more than just pick the apple. Besides, a lot of plants do have to be killed to retrieve useful materials from them, and I'm pretty sure they accept those too.
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Specialist290

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2008, 07:25:09 pm »

It's more the fact that they accept those items in trade, when they know that humans will do far more than just pick the apple. Besides, a lot of plants do have to be killed to retrieve useful materials from them, and I'm pretty sure they accept those too.

Someone suggested in another thread suggested that perhaps the Elves take a "nature will provide" stance on this sort of thing--that while killing "innocent" plant and animal life is something they view as wrong, but using something that's already dead is perfectly acceptable. In other words, they wouldn't chop a tree down for wood, but they would use the wood of a tree blown down in a storm (to name just one example).

As for why they'd accept items in trade that come from beings that were killed... Well, I can't really explain that.
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Red Jackard

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2008, 09:07:34 pm »

These elves are based off of the donation story sent to Kylaer. Check
the last two paragraphs for their outlook.

    TTT,U.E,%.UTTTT

    High in the trees, the elf gazed out from the wood line at the prairie
    beyond. The wind blew through the leaves brushing the elf's silvery
    hair away from her face. A deep scar crossed over one eye, marring
    what would otherwise been a stunningly beautiful face. She was
    Alaina, elf princess of the Forbidden Forest. For a thousand years
    the elves lived in the presence of the Forest Spirit. But all Alaina
    could remember was the day the spirit abandoned her.

    It was two days from the summer solstice. The elves were gathering
    the forest creatures for the great dance. Alaina laughed, chasing a
    chipmunk through the trees, straying dangerously close to the forest's
    edge. There she met a buck, tall and mighty, its antlers reaching
    toward the sky. Through it came the voice of the Forest Spirit.

    "Dark things have come to the forest," said the creature. "You must
    have courage and act according to nature, never against it."

    A spear struck the animal's neck, sending up great gouts of blood.
    Alaina would never forget the animal's sputtering cries as it crashed
    to the ground. A man came out of the bushes behind her. His long
    braided beard was laced with black ribbons. He seized Alaina's arm
    with his right hand, carrying a long knife in his left. Another man
    pulled his spear out of the dead beast's neck.

    "Forest maiden," said the hunter. "I claim you in the name of King Thrangdor."

    Alaina acted quickly, kicking the hunter in the lower body. The man
    howled. Consumed with a bloodthirsty rage, the hunter slashed the elf
    across the face. She screamed in pain.

    "Ergol," insisted the other man. "She is one of the forest folk. We
    dare not anger the spirits further! Best we accept the gift of this
    buck and leave!"

    The hunter looked down at the prone, weeping elf, and turned away
    after kicking dirt across her hair. The two hunters left, bearing the
    animal away. Alaina's cries soon became an animal growl that summoned
    the forest creatures to her. As the elves bore her back to the home
    tree, she plotted her revenge.

    A year later she watched from the trees as her kin made their way out
    of the forest and into the prairie in several single file lines. When
    the last had cleared the woods she jumped down after them. She ran
    along the lines, keeping low under the tall grass. She stopped now
    and again to inspect the elves' bows and arrows. They must be
    prepared to do battle for she would not suffer a human to live.

    When they reached Thrangdor's mead hall, they made a circle in the
    grass around the city wall. An elf scout returned and reported that a
    caravan was approaching piled high with logs and hides. The veins in
    Alaina's neck grew large pumping hatred into her brain.

    The caravan was guarded by a company of Thrangdor soldiers, armed with
    crossbows. As it approached the wall, the city gate opened. A man
    emerged in a flowing red robe, his beard still barring its black
    ribbons. It was Ergol, now a wealthy merchant. Alaina, shook with
    rage. Her brother, unable to contain himself, drew his sharpened club
    and charged into the road. He shattered a guard's skull before he
    knew what hit him, and ran back into the brush.

    One by one, lone elves charged the caravan and ran away. Enraged,
    Ergol shouted orders to his men. Alaina ordered all elves on far side
    of the road to fire. The elves shot up and fired their deadly
    missiles. Ergol ordered his men to face away from Alaina and fire.
    The elf princess laughed and rose with the rest of the elves and fired
    a volley into the humans' backs.

    The air was soon a chaos of arrow and bolt. Alain shouted a war cry
    and charged. She carried a wooden blade, sharpened from the wood of
    the home tree. As the armies clashed, many men and elves fell into
    pools of slick blood, spilling their entrails onto the earth. At
    last, Alaina spied Ergol fleeing toward the gate. She ran, speaking a
    prayer to the Forest Spirit for vengeance. As if to reply, the gate
    slammed shut trapping Ergol outside. She tackled him, one hand over
    his throat, the other holding the knife over his heart.

    "Know this scum," said the elf. "After you die, I will raze your city
    to the ground. Marshes will spring up where it once stood and only
    the gods will know it ever existed."

    Ergol spit up blood and laughed, "You elves are said to live according
    to nature. What animal kills for vengeance? Animals kill to eat. Do
    you plan to eat us?"

    The corners of the elf's mouth turned up as she sank the blade into
    Ergol's chest.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 09:09:30 pm by Red Jackard »
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Jingles

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Re: Elves: better or worse?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2008, 09:09:04 pm »

I think the new elves are fantastic. 

MY only problem is that they simply dont last.  Meaning Ive generated over ten medium/large worlds to the year 1025, and only one of them in 39b had any elves in it (most were done in 39c though).  Kobolds also die out in droves and far from lasting forever the Goblin populations tend to be very low (average of 30 for the whole world) leaving one or two demons all alone in thier dark fortresses.
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