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[Kagus]

That is only immersive if your character is wearing one of those cones from the vet.

Well, I hear Darkfall is going to have a werewolf-esque race, so maybe...

[nerdpride]

First of all, wow!  Someone actually replied to me in a huge thread like this.  You know, everyone makes 12 page posts, completely ignoring the other posts 
This never happened to me before!  I'm honored.

(snip)
If you ask me, the perfect RPG is about the perfect story.  I don't give a damn about graphics - in fact, I've found again and again that the more time the developers put into the graphics, the less they put into the story and gameplay.  I don't care how shiny it is if the story sucks!  I've found myself completely immersed in text-only, ASCII, and very low-graphics games because the story was so good.  (I played Sanitarium for the first time starting late one evening and I couldn't stop until I beat it - late at night, I actually started to feel *scared*.  The writing was that good.)  To that end, I wish game companies would hire *writers* to write their games, and then and only then hire designers and developers and whatnot to actually build the thing.  That's how the best games get made.

I think I'm going to sit on the fence on this particular issue. 

On one hand, many games that I love weren't developed by a team of professionals, but rather a small group basically working in someone's basement.  Take Roguelike game development for example:  they're usually the efforts of less than a handful of (often just one) programmers, but, sans graphics, they're boasting the most experimental features.

The pros just aren't willing to risk money in deviating from the formula for creating "perfect" games (while nerdy kids like me have some necessary resources in abundance).  The point is:  I think part of the industry strategy is to use not only graphics but also story as a crutch for absolutely crippled gameplay.  Graphics is mostly borrowed technology from other industries, story has been around for forever, so that leaves gameplay as the most difficult part.  It's not quite like artificial intelligence and mostly exclusive to gaming, so they can't look to many sources of inspiration.

I'd rather read a book for really good story, the information comes faster.  But in a game, like with graphics, a bland story can be enhanced by imagination.  Gameplay is the most limiting part of a game for me.

But two things cause me to retreat back to the fence:
First, games with great story and/or graphics are good fun depending on my mood.  Roguelike games are great when I'm feeling a bit bold, but they do require the effort to start playing, which I don't always want to giving.  Second, I don't think roguelike developers are capable of making the "perfect" game.  It would have to be an enlightened effort by professional programmers in the industry.  I just hope that roguelike developers pilot the way and get some credit for their work, because I really doubt that pro game developers care about gameplay at all from what I've seen recently.

I guess that was a bit off topic. 


With simplistic "random-number plus attack compared with defense" combat systems still being popular, I think it's easy to say that most games are failing in the gameplay aspect.  These things are acceptable in pencil and paper games, but with CRPGs, you have immense computing resources at your fingertips!

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Actually a lot of big business game developers hire professional writers. I really don't know what to make of that, given the quality of many stories found in video games.

[Sappho]

With games in general I can see storyline being used as a crutch for poor gameplay, as with graphics.  Since we're discussing RPGs, however, that particular genre to me has always been about story telling.  Take Final Fantasy VI: an amazingly written story that you play through.  The gameplay was good, the graphics were good enough to tell what was going on (and very good for the time), but without that awesome story, it would have just been a really long, repetitive game where you do the same thing over and over again.  That's not fun for me - it's getting engaged with the game, really taking on a role, as is suggested by "role-playing game," rather than just trying to make the numbers on the character sheet/status page/what have you go up as quickly as possible so I can fight stronger monsters so I can get more experience points so I can fight stronger monsters...  If there isn't a good story to it, I just can't bring myself to waste hours of my life on it.

Of course, I'm also a huge fan of interactive fiction games, where almost a hundred percent of the game is about the story.  I'm sure all of this stuff is a matter of personal preference, but for me there isn't much satisfaction in doing well at a game without a good plot.  I want to experience the story from the perspective of the main character, not just beat a game.

[nerdpride]

So, say we have a version of Final Fantasy VI without any story whatsoever. 

You advocate adding story to the game to occasionally draw attention away from a "good" (I would call it sufficient ) gameplay system.

I would rather try and make the battles less repetitive.  I don't think new facets of the combat system would have to enter repeatedly, but there should be enough for many (maybe a few hundred? Some thousands?) fairly unique situations.

Maybe a third method would be to make a story less linear, but this sounds even more difficult.  Random plot elements could be done, but they wouldn't appear as a polished and interconnected story.

My method is more risky, but I think it could potentially make a "perfect" game.  Perfect games should have infinite replayability. 

[Sappho]

Ah, but there is where we differ.  The most important thing to you is gameplay - everything else is just there to enhance the gameplay.  For me, the most important thing is story, and everything else is just there to enhance the story.  I'm not saying that the story is there to draw attention away from the gameplay system, I'm saying that for me, the system is only a tool for experiencing the story.

Obviously this is simply a matter of taste.  The "perfect" game would be a different game for everyone.

I'm saying this only with regard to RPG's and strategy games, though.  These genres are story-telling devices for me.  If I'm looking for something with the primary focus on gameplay, I'll play an arcade or puzzle game, or on extremely rare occasion an action game (I suck at action games!).

[Duke 2.0]

 I suppose I won't have any really interesting things to say on story vs. gameplay vs. graphics. I mostly like sandbox games where I can become the defender of the sandbox on my own, not part of a pre-planned story.

 I guess I would like gameplay over the others. I mean, it IS a game. I'll read a book/rent a video when I want story. This doesn't mean I'll live with a horrible story in my game, I just want it to be decent. Of course, making stories for games that play perfectly well with the gameplay elements and everything is hard. I'm sure there are good writers, but think of it like this:

 You are an artist. You are a master at painting on canvas. Your canvases are the best in the land! Then somebody says they will pay you a bunch to paint something on an envelope. It can be done and it will look decent, but it won't look good.

 But yes, good gameplay elements that make an addictive game make up for a half-assed story.

[Keiseth]

I'd rather read a book for really good story, the information comes faster.  But in a game, like with graphics, a bland story can be enhanced by imagination.  Gameplay is the most limiting part of a game for me.

I can play a game for any of those things. I remember games for good storylines and ones for good gameplay. An example; Shin Megami Tensei on the SNES. It had a really neat gameplay mechanic but was plagued by excessive random fights and a lack of variation. What made me finish it was the *awesome* storyline with three very distinct paths and endings. Truly fantastic, and its sequel continued it directly. How rare is that?

Then there's Wizardry. You're definitely right about Imagination enhancing a game. The first one I played was "Wizardy V" also on the SNES, but I've since played others. I don't even remember its story, as I rented it and suspected it was in the non-existent manual. Like a Roguelike, you create your characters. I didn't go into the game thinking of their background but it developed on its own. For instance, my Wizard seemed to have a morbid fear of magic. Every time he tried to identify a magic item, he'd get scared and quit. My Dwarven Fighter then Samurai took hits that would have killed everyone else on my team, shrugging them off and planting a katana into somebody's shoulder. Then there was the Rogue turned Ninja who basically never got hit a single time due to an extreme talent in hiding and backstabbing. I could count on him to lead everyone out of battle when I ran. He'd also try to disarm traps, fail, and get somebody *else* killed by it*. My leader, a Fighter turned Lord took the most hits at the very front of the party, leading by example. He was usually the one the Rogue accidentally killed.

Coincidentally both of these games allow you to make a party of six. Hmm...

*Oops! JAX SLING. Korgan has died.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Notice how none of us care about graphics

I think, despite the ascii movement still gong strong after all these years, graphics to me are good only for the occasional "OMG so pretty" moments. When you're actually playing, you tend to be too immersed in the action to notice the graphics at all. In fact, you tend to remember the cool thing your character did rather than how he looked while he did it. And of course you remember the story as much or more than even that.

Katamari Damacy anyone? Excellent example of good gameplay, minimal graphics, weird and generally nonexistent story. KD made up for it all with style. The music was interesting, too, I guess.

So I think for a game to be really popular anyway, it has to be able to grab people with its graphics, and to keep a legion of people it needs to have a lot of style. Gameplay and story are there to keep the individual player, though the word-of-mouth about the gameplay and story might help keep a large group.

I dunno, am I rambling?

[Asehujiko]

Just download the demo, it's certainly worth playing (especially if you figure out how to hack the divine powers...  Hyuck hyuck hyuck).

Once you've got a feel for the game, let yourself get seriously injured and then kill off everyone nearby so you can listen to the music in peace.  The combination of the thudding heartbeat, ragged breathing, and the absolutely haunting vocals makes for quite an experience.

I found that one of my friends had an old copy of the pc version laying arround in his house. Borrowed it, installed it, played the first 1.5 chapters and uninstalled it. Returning it tomorow.

Any credit this gime could have gotten for it's decent soundtrack is immediatly overshadowed by the horrible controls, unintuitive combat and idiotic camera positions. I got my first "combo" which is a shiny name for a a word on a screen i have no reason for visiting because it simply doesn't work. The camera teleporting all over the place results in my control sheme being inverted seemingly at random and me bumping into a wall all the time. Conbat consists of holding the block button untill the enemy is not hitting you, releasing the block button, attacking with either of the 2 attacks because there doesn't seem to be any difference and pushing the block button again. The fight in the first courtyard against 1 guard and 2 monks lasted 10 minutes because atleast 1 of the three was attacking me all the time. Then i get told that i'm not allowed to save and am faced against a guard for can for some reason block everything including my completely nonfunctional combo and in return damage me even when i try to block. The sound effects themselves are very repetitive and the music does nothing but switch between the first few notes of the battle theme and the injury theme every few seconds. The graphics are mediocre even for the ps2 and xbox it's suppsed to be played on and most of the time the camera gives me a zoomed in picture of a random barrel or door while the battle takes place on the other side of said object.

[Cthulhu]

Good, this is slightly on-topic, since we're off-topic on the same topic as this.

Which of the KOTT songs is the low health one? None of the ones i can find on http://gamemusichall.net/music/Knights_of_the_Temple/kott.php seem to be particulary linked to being wounded.

The image right above the song list is beyond awesome.