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[Pnx]

Ok so yet another ASCII vs GRAPHICAL interface debate has arisen from the mist yet again.

So my standing on this is that DF could get some tiles going with layering and transparency it would be nice. But to be honest I don't think it's enough of an issue to worry about it.

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Pnx:
<STRONG>Ok so yet another ASCII vs GRAPHICAL interface debate has arisen from the mist yet again.

So my standing on this is that DF could get some tiles going with layering and transparency it would be nice. But to be honest I don't think it's enough of an issue to worry about it.</STRONG>

I think you dont understand the whole idea behind tiles.
The key here is that the players themselves should be able to make the graphics. This is good for any community. [check out civfanatics for example and the gfx sections.]
Besides as an addition many more players would play the game, who refused to play it with ASCII.

[ July 23, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[TheSpaceMan]

Toady has told us before i belived that more gfx will be avalible for change in the next release. By defenition the entire engine is already tilebased, only that the images ARE ascii art. Right now one just have to, for instance download the Easy GFX pack from the wiki and get a diffrent experience then from the ASCII version. You can play the game using standard gfx or use easy gfx pack if ascii is to crude to you eyes.

I myself use easy GFX pack. Even edited it to make my miners look like megaman... it was a stupid idea i realise now. But what i would like in the custom panel of a dwarf is the posibilty to select a custom image to use to track specifik dwarves.

More "tilebased" (with that i guess you mean more detailed 2D images aka not ascii) will probably arive next version. You won't sudenly get any flash extra details or room for large character images, since the display will still show 25x80 squares of tiled images at all times. giveing you at most 12 pixels width and 43 pixels height to work with when running in 1024x768

This break down to:
Don't say that the game should be tile based becouse it already is. If you want larger images for hallways and rooms, then beg Toady reshape the entire rendering system for the entire engine and loose time on makeing new features and improvments just so people can complain that they don't have a good overview anymore and tries to preasure toady to implement a zoom for people so that most things will look like 8x8 pixles again.

Recomended aproach:

Wait for the next version, see what new textures are allowed to be edited, make them yourself of wait for a complete pack. Be glad that someone is willing to make such a great game and if the gfx isn't desent enough... well make your own game and show everyone how it should be done.

[DR]

Is there really added graphical functionality coming next version? I don't remember seeing that anywhere, and what with everything else that Toady's been busy with...

[TheSpaceMan]

The main point is that it's coming eventualy. And the game is hardly lacking a fan base. ^^

[Darkchampion]

Expanded tileset support would be nice, but I would prefer to have other things first such as armies.

Dwarf Fortress is deeper than the average game. The only reason I even *use* a tileset is so as a previous person said, I dont confuse elves for elephants.

[Kholint]

Ultimately even though most of you claim that the graphics are fine as they are now (and I agree with you, for the most part), using ASCII graphics is only going to appeal to the core few. It's not mainstream (anymore), so it'll always alienate a lot of games (and potential customers!) because of that.

For it to become "game of the year", super-famous and super-popular (taking it out of donation/freeware grounds and placing it firmly in commercial mainstream (not to say I wouldn't buy it if it was, but I think we can all agree you wouldn't see the average counterstrike player picking it up)), it's going to need good graphics. That's, y'know, a given.

Compare DF to The Sims*.  They both vary quite a good deal in some ares (DF is a lot more complex, for instance), but in general they're basically similar concepts. Balance resources, make the right decisions to look after your little people and express your artistic talent in the way you design your house/fortress. Do you honestly think The Sims would have been anywhere near as popular if it was ASCII?

I wonder if there'd be some way of writing a program that could overlay itself on DF's screen and add a less-text based UI. That'd be lovely.  

*I've always thought Dwarf Fortress is the perfect merging of Sim City and The Sims, to be honest. Best of both worlds, and no horrid scary clown thing.  

[TheSpaceMan]

A fact is also that DF is more CPU intense then many other games out there.
Mostly games are designed after the concept "how much can we render, with how many shaders and textures" putting a limit to nr of objects/detail in the game. This is the first limit of any comercial game. How much content can be shown.

As taken sims 2 by example, the GFX is better then sims 1 but it's still not good and Sims 2 even run slowly when i tried it on my machine. That leaves us with a Graphics engine that draws more prestanda out of the computer then the entire dwarffortress with 120 dwarves (how far as i gotten). The AI in dwarffortress is really intresting, maybe not the most advanced in most points and you want to hit a dwarf once in a while in the head with a showel. When looking at the sims, it's basicly a 24Hour babysitter becouse the sims decisions doesn't make any sense. Standing in the kitchen all day screaming and wetting themselves. It doesn't make any sense becouse there wasn't enough focus on how the AI should work IMHO.

For how to make this game of the year and make it main stream. Sorry that won't ever happen. I am very sure about this, since most people have to short fuse. The main stream player these days are casual gamers on the way playing popcap clones.

It's easy to say that a game should "look/work like that game" but there are still thousends of factors playing their part prevenging some solutions, opening up others. The mear flexibility of the fortress/mountin/enviorment will add a serious bottle neck to rendering any kind of 3D kontent. That combined with working depth of field (so we don't see the entire mountin on every layer when we start) will require lots of work that i wote should wait untill more systems have been playtested and deemed fun and working.

[ July 24, 2007: Message edited by: TheSpaceMan ]