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[Doorkeeper]

This thread contains two suggestions, both changes to FOREST entity: settlements in swamp biomes + increasing knowledge value to allow library tree generation.

Only raw modifications, no internal changes required.

Code: (suggestion changelog) [Select]

entities
added in FOREST entity
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_TEMPERATE_SWAMP]
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_TROPICAL_SWAMP]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_TEMPERATE_SWAMP:2]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_TROPICAL_SWAMP:2]
increased KNOWLEDGE value for elves to make them construct libraries


Spoiler: swampy forest retreat + library tree modded world screenshots (0.47.05) (click to show/hide)

set elf civ KNOWLEDGE value to 30




a forest retreat in a swamp






a library tree

Swamp elves

Swamps are forested wetlands with an abundance of trees. They are flooded forests. Our elves are at peace with nature and it does not seem incoherent for them to settle in these wet but woody conditions.

Gameplay reasons: allowing elves to settle in swamp biomes creates more opportunities for forest retreat spawning in small to pocket-sized worlds, which can generate with little forested regions (example). In these worlds, elven civs lack the space to expand their civ compared to other races. They succumb early to invasions and rampages due to low site numbers. Although it's an infrequent issue and while my suggestion isn't the perfect solution, it could help reduce these occurrences in smaller worlds.

More regional variation in settlements. Dwarves settle mountains and hills, humans settle grasslands and hills (should be able to settle more regions but I digress), goblins settle anywhere not good/savage. Elves only settle in forests. There are currently no trading civs that settle wetland regions. I believe the change would allow wetland-exclusive creatures (alligators, anacondas, etc.) and wood (mangrove) to become tradable through elves, but I haven't properly tested this in fort mode to confirm this.


START_BIOME remains ANY_FOREST only, so elves would still need to begin in a forest biome.

The following new SETTLEMENT_BIOME tags would be added in FOREST entity:

Code: [Select]

[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_TEMPERATE_SWAMP]
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_TROPICAL_SWAMP]

This allows elven civs to found new forest retreats in all 9 swamp biomes. There is apparently no "ANY_SWAMP" biome token.

Additionally these two BIOME_SUPPORT tags also need to be added so that elven civs can expand their territory into swamps:

Code: [Select]

[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_TEMPERATE_SWAMP:2]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_TROPICAL_SWAMP:2]

The frequency is lower than forests (3) but higher than lakes and rivers (1). At these settings, elves still prefer settling in forests than swamps, but will occasionally do so, especially near streams and lakes.



Library trees

A library in a forest retreat is already possible and supported, but elven libraries cannot (or are extremely unlikely to) generate in vanilla because civilizations require at least a KNOWLEDGE value level of 15; elven civs have a KNOWLEDGE value of 0. I'd like to ask if anyone has ever seen a forest retreat library in vanilla DF, because I haven't in the last 7 years.

Per Toady (see quote 1 at bottom) there are ways for civilizations to alter their initial cultural values over time during history gen, the two mentioned being books and the 0.47+ religions.

The problem is, books need to be stored in a library in order to be able to change the population's values (again per Toady, see 2, 3, 4), which is not possible for a civ that doesn't construct libraries. Religions can't form around regional forces. So far I haven't encountered a foreign religion of a deity of knowledge or related sphere spread onto an elven civ, then have had enough influence on the civ to create libraries. The easiest solution therefore is to raise FOREST entity's KNOWLEDGE value to 15 or more.

Elves should construct libraries by default. More locations = more interactions and activities to do, particularly in adv mode (e.g. library quests). Makes forest retreats more interesting. Of course just because elves can construct libraries doesn't mean they should or need to (like goblins and kobolds, in fact dark fortresses can also support libraries), but elven personalities are already skewed towards abstract inclined and curiousness, and elves produce scholars. They like reading and writing, and therefore books, and therefore should have their own place to store books.

One note regarding library trees is they tend to have an extremely high number of scholars, often FPS death-inducing. This is a problem that  is not specific to forest retreat libraries and plagues dwarven/human libraries and other areas too, but it's worth mentioning. The lag is bad. It's a separate matter that I hope will be dealt with in the future, but it shouldn't be a setback for more libraries. More locations would benefit the average richness of history gen alone. Books themselves did used to slow down worldgen (and libraries appear to increase the rate of authorship), but fortunately this bug was recently fixed.

• "[...] Customs and things'll change, but only after we get the framework rewritten.  Of course, the religions that come about during world gen count toward changing customs currently, and books currently can change the values of a civilization if I recall.  But there should be more." - Sep 2022 FotF
• "Libraries have an effect in world gen in the currently released version, based on the original and copied books that are there.  Every year, each library gets five turns to pick a book.  If the book has a poetic/music/dance form, it has a chance to make that form well-known in the entire parent civ, as a form of cultural diffusion.  [...]  It's a very rough system (and it doesn't respond gracefully based on the number of books, etc. etc.), but there's something there." - Mar 2019 FotF
• "[...] If you can get goblins to build a library, you could change them with books, but they start out being fairly against that sort of thing.  Changing individuals after world gen doesn't spread to the entire civ and if I remember they won't build a library after w.g. is over.  So we still need a few pieces to get all the way to your scenario, I think, with movements that act on groups through speaking etc." - Aug 2015 FotF
• [...] Philosophical study opens up different avenues of discussion that allow people to pass their values to both individual readers and to a lesser extent through the underlying civilization when there's a library with a copy. [...] - 2015-07-25 devlog

[Shonai_Dweller]

1) This should be in the modding forum. Suggestions is suggesting features to the devteam for things to add to the game. Modding in swamp elves and elven libraries is already part of the game so they don't need to do anything.

2) If you don't mind them migrating to marshes sometimes ANY_WETLAND covers all the swamps.

[Doorkeeper]

1) This should be in the modding forum. Suggestions is suggesting features to the devteam for things to add to the game. Modding in swamp elves and elven libraries is already part of the game so they don't need to do anything.

2) If you don't mind them migrating to marshes sometimes ANY_WETLAND covers all the swamps.

• Provide a link to that rule, otherwise don't lie or pretend to be moderator. I want the vanilla raws changed, and that requires the devs to change it.
• I do mind them migrating to marshes so it wouldn't work.

[FantasticDorf]

1) This should be in the modding forum. Suggestions is suggesting features to the devteam for things to add to the game. Modding in swamp elves and elven libraries is already part of the game so they don't need to do anything.

2) If you don't mind them migrating to marshes sometimes ANY_WETLAND covers all the swamps.

• Provide a link to that rule, otherwise don't lie or pretend to be moderator. I want the vanilla raws changed, and that requires the devs to change it.
• I do mind them migrating to marshes so it wouldn't work.

I think doorkeeper has a valid point, actually suggesting non-concept sugg is slightly rarer per average, but its no different to just saying "Add [PET] to common civ exclusive animals you can take back from raids" that was heeded a while back.

On the architecture of sites, especially elf swamps it'd be nicer to see more variations with it took into consideration. Mangroves poking out from above a large pool of murky water with the characteristic "tree-buildings", but instead snaking street-lines of organic tree matter make a rooted walkway for elves across the swamp floor and little connecting pathways between trees. Or tundra hillocks being made out of little ice igloos in ways beyond what local materials can be used to build with but rather incorporate the enviromental design.

About swamps themselves, if swamps had more in the way of valuable topsoil peat to extract and use or extreme richness, it'd be also good for humans to colonize there and make large agricultural centre, related to the dredging & poldering of English and Dutch swampland. You could get your alligators and the like similarly.

Elves actually investing in some "buildings" via very large tree-log wall constructs would be interesting. Especially since they lack a keep/dungeon/throne room equivilent natively, and you could recycle this for public locations that need accomodation.

[Pillbo]

There’s nothing wrong with a suggestion that could be modded. 

I personally would be more interested in a different creature/civs for swamps, like plant people or something... But more variety in the game’s existing creatures/civs would be a good thing too. It would be nice if a world with 4 elf civs resulted in 4 societies that felt different from each other. Like if the civs adapted to their biomes, so you could get desert goblins, or swamp elves, or hill dwarves, etc… but I guess that’s a different suggestion.

[Resmisal]

Swamp elves? Wills-of-the-wisps and ghost lights, too! This raises an interesting question: Should there be elves in all biomes with trees - Yes/No?

Edit: typo.