Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Fortress Design Questions  (Read 3560 times)

DrCyano

  • Bay Watcher
  • For !!SCIENCE!!
    • View Profile
Fortress Design Questions
« on: January 22, 2022, 04:32:11 pm »

Greetings all!

I usually don't put much any planning onto the design of my forts, but I'm finding this becomes a problem on small embarks. I often forget to make space for training rooms... Or hospitals...

For a fortress that is going to train up a large military (for conquest and for exploring the caverns), what are well the essential rooms (besides bedrooms) that the fortress would need?

Thanks y'all!
Logged


A mad scientist necromancer, a peasant with a dream, a secret message inscribed on a gem, a giant bridge.
Come witness the Saga of the Puzzling Sea!
A documented Dwarf Fortress v0.47.xx game combining Fort Mode and Adventure Mode.

anewaname

  • Bay Watcher
  • The mattock... My choice for problem solving.
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2022, 02:52:36 pm »

Your hospital can be a 3x3 room with 7 beds, a chest, and a traction bench in the middle. A 50-dwarf military can train in a 5x5 room. There are good reasons to have larger room-areas, but you should find that adding a needed room isn't that difficult.

For a cavern expedition, it is a good idea to have a room (maybe 15x15), with a raising gate at each exit. You want that room as a place your military dwarfs can stand and fight if there is a great threat and your civilians are still trickling back through the gate. You want those gates so you can raise them and lock the horror out, and possibly to lock your military dwarfs with it, hoping for success and planning for failure.
Logged
Quote from: dragdeler
There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.

Thisfox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Vixen.
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2022, 02:10:26 pm »

My method is simple. I tend to immediately make a "base camp" room a few levels down (aquifer permitting) with food storage, other storage, farms, meeting hall, bedrooms and an office for the manager/bookkeeper, and then I plan and organise a larger fort when we are safely moved in.

The actual fortress will have a metalworking/forges/kiln/materialstorage area, near to a woodworking/woodstorage area. It will have a seperate stoneworking area. It will have a well, a hospital, food storage, wildfowl egg-production area, and kitchen/breweries with meeting/dining halls both public and private, and a tavern. It will have offices, bedrooms, and tombs. It will have a library, temples and guildenhalls. It will have a glass ceiling over a dugout greenhouse for exotic plants, and a barn accessible from underground. Often the barn is in a walled-in section of the caverns, as all they need is cavernmoss or something like that to eat. Speaking of caverns, there will be a silk-production area and fabric/thread/leather storage area somewhere, with a way of making clothing. It's nice to see dorfs walking around my fort wearing clothing sourced at the fort itself.

And yes, eventually the original meetinghall we used as our first fortress area can often become my default training area for the military, complete with the original small cells to the side to give them somewhere to sleep, and a tiny food storage area. But I just as often stick a weapon rack on the roof of the greenhouse (in the direct sun and rain!) and say "here's your dojo, guys, now you won't get sunsick!" Training areas don't need to be big to be effective, but it helps to put them near the source of the danger so that they're not going to take 5 years to walk to the attackers. And surrounding the greenhouse with traps gives the fighterdorfs a fighting chance in the event of unexpected attack.
Logged
Mules gotta spleen. Dwarfs gotta eat.
Thisfox likes aquifers, olivine, Forgotten Beasts for their imagination, & dorfs for their stupidity. She prefers to consume gin & tonic. She absolutely detests Facebook.
"Urist McMason died out of pure spite to make you wonder why he was suddenly dead"
Oh god... Plump Helmet Man Mimes!

Salmeuk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2022, 07:45:05 pm »

quick access to weapon stockpiles allows for on-the-fly equipping of militias
Logged

DrCyano

  • Bay Watcher
  • For !!SCIENCE!!
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2022, 06:49:47 am »

Great ideas!

So let's see... A rough list of rooms would be:
- food storage
- other storage
- farms
- animal pasture
- egg production
- meeting hall
- 2-4 offices
- kitchen and still
- armory
- hospital
- 1-2 guide halls
- security/training room
- workshop hall
- smelting/forge/furnace room

Anything else?
Logged


A mad scientist necromancer, a peasant with a dream, a secret message inscribed on a gem, a giant bridge.
Come witness the Saga of the Puzzling Sea!
A documented Dwarf Fortress v0.47.xx game combining Fort Mode and Adventure Mode.

Thisfox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Vixen.
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2022, 03:43:07 pm »

- Library.
- Temple.
- Private dining halls.
- Bedrooms. Most dorfs prefer a seperate bedroom. I make mine lavish.
- Wellroom, with water, soap, and grating floors so the contamination can fall through the gratings.
- Tombs, both private and communal.

You might need as many as four guildhalls (I've had it happen in a fort of fifty dorfs, they had a lot of skills between them).

I prefer to keep my refuse and corpse piles indoors, in a series of small seperate rooms close to the butchers and tanners shops, with miasma shielding between them and the rest of the fort. You might have a different method.
Logged
Mules gotta spleen. Dwarfs gotta eat.
Thisfox likes aquifers, olivine, Forgotten Beasts for their imagination, & dorfs for their stupidity. She prefers to consume gin & tonic. She absolutely detests Facebook.
"Urist McMason died out of pure spite to make you wonder why he was suddenly dead"
Oh god... Plump Helmet Man Mimes!

DrCyano

  • Bay Watcher
  • For !!SCIENCE!!
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2022, 04:54:52 pm »

- Library.
- Temple.
- Private dining halls.
- Bedrooms. Most dorfs prefer a seperate bedroom. I make mine lavish.
- Wellroom, with water, soap, and grating floors so the contamination can fall through the gratings.
- Tombs, both private and communal.

You might need as many as four guildhalls (I've had it happen in a fort of fifty dorfs, they had a lot of skills between them).

I prefer to keep my refuse and corpse piles indoors, in a series of small seperate rooms close to the butchers and tanners shops, with miasma shielding between them and the rest of the fort. You might have a different method.

Thanks Thisfox! I didn't know about the well grating trick.

Here's what I got now, with room sizes. Please correct any errors:


Early fort essentials:
- bedrooms - 1 bedroom per dorf (1x2 - 3x3)
- nobility rooms: private offices, dining rooms, and tombs (size?)
- kitchen and still (at least 3x6)
- food storage (2x4)
- other storage (size?)
- farm room (10x10)
- animal pasture (at least 5x5)
- workshop hall (size?)
- meeting hall (at least 10x10)
- cemetery (at least 10x10)
- wellroom, with water, soap, and grating floors so the contamination can fall through the gratings (3x3)
- hospital (at least 3x3)
- garbage disposal (1x2, enclosed with door and with optional smashing draw bridge)

Later additions:
- library (at least 3x3)
- temple (5x5)
- egg production (size?)
- armory (size?)
- 1-4 guild halls (5x5 ea.)
- security/training room(s) (at least 5x5)
- smelting/forge/furnace room (at least 6x6)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 04:07:11 pm by DrCyano »
Logged


A mad scientist necromancer, a peasant with a dream, a secret message inscribed on a gem, a giant bridge.
Come witness the Saga of the Puzzling Sea!
A documented Dwarf Fortress v0.47.xx game combining Fort Mode and Adventure Mode.

Garfunkel

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2022, 11:16:16 pm »

Keep your hives away from everything else and do the same for your nest boxes. Otherwise, your announcements window will be filled with how someone bit stung by a bee or how turkey started a fight with a dog.

I keep a 5x10 area for egg production as that allows me to have 3 rows of 10 nest boxes with free tile rows between them. Of course you can make multiple smaller rooms for them and just make more as your egg production grows. Also, using the autonestbox function of DFHack is a blessing - just remember it requires at least one normal pasture before it can function.

Logged

Thisfox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Vixen.
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2022, 09:34:23 pm »

I've realised the difference between you and me: I don't use the storage exploit where everything goes down on the same tile (quantum stockpiles). Never seen the point, when storage can be beautiful and spread out. Room costs nothing, and even a 1x1 embark has practically endless vertical space, and a lot of room to spread out laterally.

I make my standard bedrooms at least 3x3, often to 3x6. Space is cheap, and makes dorfs happy, so why skimp? Nobles get much larger bedrooms (5x8 is often a nice size), with smoothed and engraved walls and elaborate statues and artworks. That said, sometimes I just have beds dotted about everywhere, and no assigned rooms. Well, not none at all: nobles who request them get private bedrooms, and the non-nobles can go sleep where they feel the need. Depends on the fort.
Tombs are about the same size as the bedroom, noble and military tombs larger, etc. If the dorfs have no bedroom, I try to make sure they have a chest and a cabinet in their tomb. No tomb smaller than about 4x4 if I'm doing it this way. That said, a graveyard is just a big room with lots of coffins constructed in it. The reason I do the tomb thing is because of my no-bedroom experimentation.

Food storage? I usually have at least three 10x10 food storage rooms to each kitchen. Often more. Seperate rooms for booze. The closest one I fill with food I want the kitchen to cook first. I have a seperate food storage and kitchen area for the butchers and tanners, restricted to fat, tallow and lye, so that I can make soap easily. This needs ash to be made, so a seperate log room (50x50 if I can get away with it, in case the elves want me to stop logging) and woodburning furnaces and so on. Often I put a bed in each food storage room. When !fun! starts going down, I can lock the doors on the sleeping dorfs, and leave them trapped with a few years worth of food.

Wellroom is a meeting hall, and thuswise usually at least 10x10, as it can be full of statues, art, a waterfall falling onto a statue and draining through the floor, some spare beds, and then a seperate room to the side with binless soap storage (if you use bins for soap, you get the weirdest cancellation spam). Often the wellroom has a minibar, or a zoo of chained animals around a pedestal with an unused artifact, or even a gaol area with private wells for the criminals to drink from. Often it has been smoothed and carved and even floored in imported brick tile. Sometimes it's two storeys high. You can't get too elaborate for a wellroom, it's a leisure area of the fort.
Hospital is usually about the size of the wellroom, with a private well, often sharing the cistern with the main meeting halls. Perhaps 8x12? If the dorfs like it there, they're less likely to let their friend die of thirst. Put in some bucket storage.

The Guildhalls need to be big and full of things or they won't be expensive enough. 10x10 again works for me. Smoothed and carved walls, artworks and statues, even another waterfall (I'm big on waterfalls).

My garbage disposal is usually a whole level, multiple 5x12 rooms. It adjoins an area for bonecarving and decorating with shell and bone. I also have similar rooms full of binless gemstones and jewellers stations. I don't usually bother too much with atom smashing until the fort is at least 10 or older. Perhaps that's my downfall, but it works for me.

When you first put in the Library (recommend within the first two years, but you can go later) it will literally fill with dwarves, as they all want to read a book. Count your population, and put in tables and chairs for anywhere between a third and a half of the population, and they should cope. They will definitely fill those seats. It doesn't need more than a couple of bookcases and chests though. So again, like the wellroom, it is a large and leisurely area, with chained animals keeping a close eye on the books so they don't get stolen.

Unless you are trying for some sort of bare minimum challenge, lavish large rooms and chambers and wide hallways will keep your dorfs from trying to kill each other in frustration.
Logged
Mules gotta spleen. Dwarfs gotta eat.
Thisfox likes aquifers, olivine, Forgotten Beasts for their imagination, & dorfs for their stupidity. She prefers to consume gin & tonic. She absolutely detests Facebook.
"Urist McMason died out of pure spite to make you wonder why he was suddenly dead"
Oh god... Plump Helmet Man Mimes!

DrCyano

  • Bay Watcher
  • For !!SCIENCE!!
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2022, 05:54:32 am »

Heh, I don't use quantum stockpiles, actually. I just have a habit of making very compact forts (probably because I like above-ground buildings). I really appreciate your perspective. It would never occur to me to store more than 4 barrels worth of food. :)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 06:28:55 am by DrCyano »
Logged


A mad scientist necromancer, a peasant with a dream, a secret message inscribed on a gem, a giant bridge.
Come witness the Saga of the Puzzling Sea!
A documented Dwarf Fortress v0.47.xx game combining Fort Mode and Adventure Mode.

Salmeuk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2022, 10:16:48 am »

I think the game should have a vanilla quantum-stockpile equivalent... because IRL there are many ways to stack multiple items in one tile besides bins.

While it is true that space is fairly limitless during fortress design, it cannot be overstated how large and sprawling fortress are slower and less efficient. Like, horribly slow. The extra walking distance multiplies the various quirks of hauling task assignment and pathing, thus resulting in compounding time loss to forgetful (lazy) or hungry (good-for-nothing) or socially-deprived (freeloader) dwarves.

QS's thus serve a very real purpose, but I must agree with thisfox - I have never personally used them. I imagine in a vertically-deprived fortress you might find them more useful, say, if you were building on a layer of flux just above a large aquifer.

Logged

Thisfox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Vixen.
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2022, 02:25:05 pm »

Yeah, I guess room does cost time, which I have plenty of. I mean, I used quantum stockpiles a few times, a long time ago. I just didn't enjoy them. So I stopped. And aquifers are something I actively seek out and build under, because I love having endless water.

Not using quantum stockpiles, I find if I have small food stockpiles, the kitchens fill with food, then fill with rotten food, then fill with miasma. The stockpiles need to be adequately large to prevent this, so my food stockpiles would be considerably larger than just adequate.

The thing I'd like to emphasise here is just because I do something in my fort one way, doesn't mean anyone else has to. This game contains multitudes. And that is wonderful.
Logged
Mules gotta spleen. Dwarfs gotta eat.
Thisfox likes aquifers, olivine, Forgotten Beasts for their imagination, & dorfs for their stupidity. She prefers to consume gin & tonic. She absolutely detests Facebook.
"Urist McMason died out of pure spite to make you wonder why he was suddenly dead"
Oh god... Plump Helmet Man Mimes!

ldog

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2022, 12:19:04 am »

I realize I'm late to the party as usual and OP may well have figured out all he wants by now, but for an example of a fort that is pretty fully featured and can even fit in a 1x1 embark, https://docs.dfhack.org/en/stable/docs/guides/quickfort-library-guide.html#visual-overview
I'm partial to this because while this is all the product of myk's hard work (both with the coding and the design and very heavily documenting it all) I did have a fair bit of input on it's development.
It does make extensive use of Quantum stockpiles, personally I find anything else lunacy with how many things are broken in this game, but to each his own. (I also once felt they were evil bug-abusing meta-gaming gameyness, but once you go QSP you'll never go back)
Building this is also highly automated (as it is the new Quickfort stock plan), which may reduce the fun for some but I'd still highly recommend having a look for anyone who wants to learn techniques to put into their own builds, or is struggling to get past beginner to intermediate/advanced. myk threw a savegame up as well if you just want to poke around it.
Besides the floorplans we've also created very extensive work orders which are useful for any fort.

So while it is small, we didn't skimp or go minimalistic. Even the common dorf gets a fully furnished 3x3 bedroom. The ample surface fort allows safely exploring game features that can't be done in a purely underground design. The large dining hall is ready to be used as a tavern with 3 inn rooms if desired. So looking through the pictures you can get a good feel of most everything needed in a mature fort and the amount of space required, although this could be shrunk in quite a few places if you don't mind it feeling cramped. You're also on your own for cavern defense/HFS breaches as it's just to dependent on the embark to pre-design.
Logged
Quote from: Dirst
For example, if you wanted to check if a unit was eligible to be a politician or a car salesman, you'd first want to verify that there is no soul present...

Quote from: gchristopher
The more appropriate question becomes, are they awesome and dwarven enough.

Thisfox

  • Bay Watcher
  • Vixen.
    • View Profile
Re: Fortress Design Questions
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2022, 09:29:50 pm »

-but once you go QSP you'll never go back- 

Untrue, some people do. Like I said, I did use QSP for a while, disliked, and stopped.
Logged
Mules gotta spleen. Dwarfs gotta eat.
Thisfox likes aquifers, olivine, Forgotten Beasts for their imagination, & dorfs for their stupidity. She prefers to consume gin & tonic. She absolutely detests Facebook.
"Urist McMason died out of pure spite to make you wonder why he was suddenly dead"
Oh god... Plump Helmet Man Mimes!