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[protopulse]

I have a werepanda and werewolf in the same room during a full moon. The werewolf has a baby boy on her back. They don't turn on each other, they don't turn on the baby, and they don't break down the mudstone door or the tombs nearby. But if I let them out of the room, they attack my dwarves.

Is this normal behavior? The wiki seems to suggest that no, this is not. Do I have some setting on that makes them docile? Or is this a bug? Version 0.47.05 LNP.

Bonus question:

Best way to separate a dwarf from its child?

I've tried stationing the dwarf on a retracting bridge connected to a lever, with a cage trap underneath. I pull the lever, the dwarf and its baby falls, but the dwarf does not end up in the cage trap.

I've tried putting the dwarf in a danger room surrounded by cage traps. Again, dodging into the cage trap does not capture the dwarf...

I've also tried flinging the baby and dwarf together off a bridge. That works in separating the two, but the dwarf then immediately goes into seek child mode. If I burrow the dwarf so that the child isn't inside of the burrow, she just freezes there, doing nothing else. If I station the dwarf, she ignores the burrow and all station orders and goes to the child again.

I've tried running the dwarf across a waterfall, but I don't have a good setup where the dwarf won't just drop the baby down the well instead.

I've tried burrowing the infant, but apparently it doesn't obey burrows.

I read it's possible to put a dwarf in a locked room full of cage traps, and the cages then capture her immediately when she goes to sleep. Haven't tried this yet. Also haven't tried constructing a support with a wall connected and then removing the support and knocking my dwarf unconscious.

[PatrikLundell]

No, it's not normal behavior. Weres of the same type (or possibly even restricted to the exact same curse) are supposed not to fight each other (but it still happens). However, I think it's been seen before. It might be that turning into a were doesn't abort some (not identified) activities, or it might be something completely different.

A gremlin trap (a lever connected to retracting bridges causing the gremlin to fall into cage traps on the level below) usually requires a lot of traps on the level below, with one trap on each tile the gremlin can fall onto (I think my latest iteration had 14 traps).

Dodging can result in dorfs getting caught, but capture probably requires the dorf to get stunned.

If a dorf is trying to perform a task and then is burrowed at a location where the task cannot be performed the dorf either produces cancellation spam, silently get rooted in place while trying to perform the task, or, far to infrequently, drops the task. When a task is dropped due to burrowing the dorf then tends to stand rooted on the spot until there is a task within the burrow for it to take up (where eat/drink/sleep/socializing/... are "tasks" as well). Also, the buggers can start socializing and praying if they happen to be within such zones, even if outside of the burrow, or when the "I've finished a task and now wander off 10 steps in some direction" movement ends them in such zones. That wandering off can also have them escape burrows (and then get rooted outside).

Babies do not obey burrows, and mothers have no higher priority tasks than picking up their babies (I'm not sure about mood priority here).

I don't see sleep catching of the mother as useful, unless it somehow catches the mother only. If both the mother and the child are caught in the same trap you can only release them together (and yes, it's possible to catch more than one creature in a trap, as it's happened to me on a small number of occasions, but not in any controlled way. Presumably, all the creatures have to somehow enter the tile in the short interval before the trap is evaluated).

[protopulse]

Any idea how to fix my werebeasts behavior? I'm not seeing the bug report in the bug tracker...the closest one is http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=10014. Or maybe http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=8403? My werebeasts are in squads although the squads are not active since I station them then remove the station order. No burrows.

Oh yea, forgot to mention sending him in a room with a bed and locking the door, he also doesn't destroy the bed...

Yea, I observed the cancellation spam for the mother dwarf. So if I have a dwarf that I assign to a burrow, and the burrow does not include the dwarf's current location, will it just stand there? Or will it walk to the burrow once a job at the burrow becomes available? In other words, can it walk through non-burrow areas to get to the burrow?

I was under the impression babies can't get caught in traps...maybe I'm wrong. Getting dropped onto a cage trap directly (stunned) did not capture the dwarf or child. I guess I really need to knock out the dwarf mother?

If I have a dwarf locked in a cage, will the dwarf starve/die of thirst? Will he go insane/unhappy? Turn into a werewolf and back? Or is his state basically locked while in that cage?

Edit: Further testing results

1. If in squad, with no station order, werecreatures will attack citizens. If their baby is knocked off their back, they will attack their babies too.

2. Regardless of whether the werebeasts are in a squad, they won't attack each other or furniture before or after transformation. All wounds are still healed, including infections.

[PatrikLundell]

I don't know how to fix weres.
Note that to destroy things the building destroyer has to be two orthogonal tiles away from the target, with an available path to the target (not necessarily straight ahead: it may be around the back through the fortress and to the other side). If too close to the target building destroyers used to get stuck and not move out to destruction distance, but behaviors changed a bit in the latest version, so some get caught and some don't.

Burrows ONLY specify where jobs may be performed and don't affect how dorfs get between these locations. It's a confusing aspect of burrows. Thus, they can be disjoint and still allow dorfs to move between the segments.

Fortress members will normally die if caged for long enough. Even if they're given food and water they're still unable to sleep and will go insane because of it. Creatures that don't need to eat or sleep may or may not go insane. Weres are "healed" of hunger, thirst, and drowsiness when they turn, and can thus remain caged forever. I believe they may still go insane, but I'm not sure.
Captured enemies can remain caged indefinitely, although wild grazing animals will starve to death unless fed even if you don't tame them (feeding animals seems to be a low priority job, but with enough free hands it should still get done).

[protopulse]

Okay, thanks for clarifying how burrows work. I mean, I guess it's a blessing that my werebeasts are bugged and don't attack their children since I don't even need to separate them. If I have to cage the mother, I'd have to worry about feeding the kid and keeping the mother sane.

Just wish I knew what triggered them to become bugged like that. I don't recall them ever knocking over furniture/doors in this save file...and it wasn't until I tried putting a mother werebeast and a child in the same room during a full moon that I suspected something was wrong.

[protopulse]

Okay. I think I figured out how to replicate the bug.

Load a new save. If you don't do anything, the dwarves will turn into werebeasts on full moon and kill those around them, their own babies included.

Now do the same thing, except you make a station order and then cancel it once they reach their destination, and suddenly, they're completely docile. Since I've been using station orders before full moons every time, they never went crazy on me before.

I actually don't know if I can get werebeasts to sleep...their drowsiness meter resets every full moon. So catching them in a cage trap during sleep doesn't seem possible.

They still don't seem interested in tearing apart that mudstone door or my tombs though.

[PatrikLundell]

I don't think babies need to be fed, actually (dwarf milk isn't produced by dwarves...). If left alone (like babies dropped at birth by visitors) they just crawl around randomly until they get themselves killed (e.g. in the well cistern). Once they grow up to become children they'll feed themselves.

[Thisfox]

I don't think babies need to be fed, actually (dwarf milk isn't produced by dwarves...). If left alone (like babies dropped at birth by visitors) they just crawl around randomly until they get themselves killed (e.g. in the well cistern). Once they grow up to become children they'll feed themselves.

They get food and drink for themselves before then. The reason babies fall down the well is because they try to help themselves to well water when thirsty. I've had emancipated babies in my fort (some migrated, some had parents injured or killed, one got born by a pregnant liaison, who left, but they baby was a member of the fort) and they will help themselves to food and drink, or other dorfs will feed them, despite them not being family members. If the baby does leave mum, try to get it into a place where it can get its own food and drink, without a well, and it will do fine.

[protopulse]

Oh, I was wondering how babies always seem to find their way down wells. I have a bunch of caged animals (and maybe prisoners?) getting fed too, so I wonder if it's the same priority to get fed.

I don't need to separate baby and mom if I exploit that bug. But if I had to separate them to save the baby, I'm still kinda stumped how I could do it other than catapulting both of them off a bridge (at which point the baby will be wandering randomly around OUTSIDE my fortress and I have no way to guide him back in, and the mom will be stuck in a task cancellation loop trying to seek infant). The mom won't fall asleep. And getting stunned and dodging/dropping her into a cage trap apparently doesn't work. I read webbed cage traps work 100% of the time but I don't have access to webs. And I can't order my dwarves to lock the mom up or knock her unconscious when she hasn't committed any crimes.

[PatrikLundell]

If any crimes have been detected in the fortress I believe you can convict anyone of them. However, the cost of THAT is extreme, as it requires the enabling of the completely broken (in my opinion) injustice system, after which it can't be disabled (unless it's possible to kill of those involved in it to stop their persecutions of innocents). If you want to play whack-a-mole with an inexhaustible supply of villains you may already have activated the system, though.

[protopulse]

Aha. I see the option. Don't need any witness to convict someone. So if I convict someone innocent, the AI takes over and keeps convicting innocents? I haven't had to deal much with the villain system presumably because I have disabled strange moods.

[Thisfox]

I can't imagine playing this game without the occasional moody dwarf.

My method of dealing with villains problems is a wardog chained next to each pedestal. Not pastured, actually chained. Number of artifacts stolen since I instigated this: Zero. In fact, it doesn't even have to be a wardog, I have a rooster chained next to one artifact pedestal in my current fort, and a spider monkey chained next to another. Turns out that if the animal is chained next to the pedestal, absolutely no thieves ever steal the artifact.

[PatrikLundell]

No, it's not the AI taking over. Mandate spewers accuse random dorfs for the failures to fulfill impossible mandates (such as the production of metal weapons on embarks without any weapons grade ore at times when no goblinite has been harvested), including the export of items which are banned from export AFTER having been exported. The injustice system then exacts punishment on these victims without player input if the injustice system is enabled (i.e. there's someone appointed who can perpetrate the punishments). The system has (failed to) worked this way for many years, at least since 0.40.X, and probably well before that.

Thisfox' observation (posted while I was writing) is very interesting. It implies that ensuring there's a witness would block the theft madness (the unblockable corruption still happens, but the effects would be blocked, providing you're diligent and ensures each and every artifact gets put on guarded display as soon as it's created (or assigned as equipment to a specific dorf)).

[protopulse]

Oh, I've seen that happen. So I've been careful the things my nobles prefer are things I actually have. A dwarf or two did unfortunately get whacked around a bit for failing to meet mandates early on though. I also don't have someone as hammerer and my captain of the guard sucks at combat so any punishments are usually non-lethal.

The reason I disabled strange moods was that they were occurring too frequently for my taste and I asked around and nobody knew a way to tone down their frequency a bit. Still good to know creating a pedestal for each artifact and chaining a dog next to it prevents 100% of thefts. So the thief doesn't even attempt it? Or they do but get caught by the animal?