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[FantasticDorf]

Many real world nations are founded upon stories, exaggerated by times of bigger than life leaders who become fantastical examples in their own right embedded into its culture. Some of the oldest dating back all the way to the exploits of Gilgamesh, which wrote down into sumerian describes his mighty feats with his trusted wildman friend and former sparring partner/rival, Enkidu.

There's Romulus and Remus for instance, raised by a mother wolf along the river Tiber, with a tragic tale that only one of them would go on to found Rome. Many such important figures could make their way in essence to DF through building up large start-date characters to set designs in motion dying in the course of worldgen or persisting through immortality.

Much of these, especially if generated would be perfect for a micro mythology selector as well as pre-worldgen interactions with dieties similar to how clowns currently curry favor with the gods to raise their dark towers, sealing binding slabs away into the world.

Here's the story to explain my suggestion concept and how it translates into code.

In a time before time Gimrol the dwarf king, former metalsmith of heaven stole the anvil of the gods to empower their own kind is banished and made mortal; in recognition his own race the dwarves coronate him as king.

Code: [Select]

civ_leader.txt

[CIV_LEADER]
        [ENTITY:MOUNTAIN]
[UNIQUE_LEADER] ## Unique leader only generates one, unlike [LEADER] which is used for templates and [UNIQUE_DEMON:(token of non generated demon)] intentionally for dark towers

## Defined [UNIQUE_LEADER] and [UNIQUE_DEMON] overlaps current civleaders and leaves less than the number defined up to being generated from normal populations
## if [LEADER] is selected, it overwrites generated leaders left behind from unique leader tags.

## UNIQUE_DEMON has its own set of raws allocating to additionally defined details such as ability to conduct experiments

[MYTH:PROMETHIAN] ##A couple of preset scenarios built in to play with, this one yields a starting artifact.
[NAME:GIMROL:IRONSIDES] ##First and Last name
        [HISTORICAL_NICKNAME:The Theif] ##Generic controls for a nickname, with more being added on in w.g
        [AGE:180] ## Mortal and likely to die without interventionalist tags or maxage tweaks in creature definition
[RACE:DWARF:MALE] ##token creature & caste, flexible for monsterous leaders like cyclops
[POSITION:MONARCH] ##clarifies link

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        [SKILLS]            ## Allocates randomly if not defined, from creature token template
        [PERSONALITY]   ##
        [ATTRIBUTES]     ##
        [APPEARANCE]    ## Affected by overriding creature token for specific traits to add usually inaccessible features.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CREATURE_DEFINTITION]

## And from this point on can define a creature text definition uniquely, such as unique interactions or seperate appearances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The large intention with this is that players can modify, install and turn off in worldgen settings unique leaders that can lend themselves to making a more story driven playthrough of fortress or adventure mode or make a absolute setting in modifications.

[voliol]

Much of this I love, but I feel it could be abstracted another way. Instead of having "CIV_LEADER" as the top object type, let it be something like "MYTH_FIGURE" ("figure" because of "historical figure"). That way unique demons as well as other non-position-holders can share many of the same tokens with non-demon civ-leaders. Possibly all "figures"/characters/persons that appear during mythgen, including gods. Then, the mythical figure would be connected to an entity position through a token (POSITION:entity_id:position:id), and templates would use MYTH_FIGURE_TEMPLATE or maybe MYTH_FIGURE_VARIATION depending on which model ends up fitting the better. Alternatively, just leaving blanks in a MYTH_FIGURE raw for the computer to fill in could work as a sort of "template".

I'd also use CREATURE instead of RACE, because that's what the rest of the raws use.

Here's Gimrol using the structure changes I propose:

Code: [Select]

myth_person.txt
[OBJECT:MYTH_FIGURE]

[MYTH_FIGURE:GIMROL]

[NAME:GIMROL:IRONSIDES] ##First and Last name
[HISTORICAL_NICKNAME:The Thief] ##Generic controls for a nickname, with more being added on in w.g
[AGE:180] ## Mortal and likely to die without interventionalist tags or maxage tweaks in creature definition

[CREATURE:DWARF:MALE] ##token creature & caste, flexible for monstrous leaders like cyclops
[POSITION:MOUNTAIN:MONARCH] ##links with the MONARCH position of the MOUNTAIN entity
[ENTITY_FOUNDER:MOUNTAIN] ##if there is an available founder, it must be used when founding an entity of this kind
##cofounders should be allowed so no founder is left at the end of mythgen without having founded anything

[MYTH:PROMETHIAN] ##A couple of preset scenarios built in to play with, this one yields a starting artifact.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        [SKILLS]            ## Allocates randomly if not defined, from creature token template
        [PERSONALITY]   ##
        [ATTRIBUTES]     ##
        [APPEARANCE]    ## Affected by overriding creature token for specific traits to add usually inaccessible features.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CREATURE_DEFINITION]

## And from this point on can define a creature text definition uniquely, such as unique interactions or seperate appearances.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------To back up my claims about versatility, I also tried describing Enkidu from the Epic of Gilgamesh:

Enkidu was a wild man created by the gods to enact their anger against Gilgamesh. This plan misfired, as the two soon became the best of friends.

Code: [Select]

[MYTH_FIGURE:ENKIDU]

[NAME:Enkidu:NO_LN] ##First and Last name, NO_LN stands for "No Last Name"
[HISTORICAL_NICKNAME:the wild man] ##Generic controls for a nickname, with more being added on in w.g

[CREATURE:HUMAN:MALE] ##token creature & caste
[SPHERE:NATURE] ##a sphere connection. Enkidu's some kind of primal person, thus NATURE.

[ORIGIN:INTENTIONAL_CREATION:ANY_GOD:FOR_VENGEANCE] ##who exactly is the creator isn't too important, ANY_GOD just means any personified deity
                                                    ##the creation is intentional though, and it is done for vengeance
##probably defaults to NATURAL_BIRTH or just leaves it up to the computer

[RELATIONSHIP:MYTH_FIGURE:GILGAMESH:FRIENDSHIP] ##establishes a friendship between Enkidu and a GILGAMESH MYTH_FIGURE.

and then [SKILLS] etc.
One problem I encountered was that you'd want to specify events as well as characters, and that either takes tokens with a lot of subtokens, or a more robust system involving some kind of "event" objects in the raws. An example would be how Gimrol is described as both the founder of a MOUNTAIN entity and the king of one. How does the computer know those are the same MOUNTAIN entities, and that he's supposed to be the first king? Enkidu being friends with Gilgamesh is another issue. He is, but not at all points of the story. "Being created to enact vengeance against someone and then instead becoming friends" is a single sentence, but it takes a lot of tokens to describe. And you need that amount of precision, otherwise recreations of pretty much any myth will be impossible, rendering moddable mythgen null. 

Also, I do prefer a generalized system above one that assigns "classes" for a few specific kinds of figures (entity leaders, demons etc.), but it's difficult to draw a line of where a "figure" ends; if gods are "figures" what about forces that act with some intent during mythgen? What about generalized animal populations like "the snake" or "the animals", as already attested during the mythgen demos? What about "the one ring" from LoTR, or other sentient items?
Maybe a line shouldn't even be drawn, other than the one between actors ("figures") and events. That would maximize flexibility and the amount of stuff you could mod in, but would also require lots of safeguarding so things don't just break down e.g. when somebody tells the game that the generalized concept of humanity should be the king of a civilization. As funny as that would be.

[FantasticDorf]

I approve of your insight and secondary example. My suggestion is meant to be leader specific but it carries very well to your alternative subject of making it more broad to apply to pre-worldgen persons like Enkidu.

Also the intention is that via [UNIQUE_LEADER] it only spawns one such example of this then passes making them re-occur, so that in any such world of multiple mountain civs there would be one Gimrol amongst many other different start-date kings left to wg historical reference or [LEADER] templates. Filling in more UNIQUE_LEADERS will mean that between them more will generate, possibly allowing you to edit in any named characters by referencing their leader file regarding subordinates or personal relations (like does gimrol have a consort, or heir, does he get along with the elven queen? Does the game start with them at war or on one parties death jeapoardize their alliance)

Also, mythological character as a more broader term could be applied to monsters, which i doubly approve to be interjected in at different points of the world-generation as a broad disaster given a particular intent as a nemesis towards a person, entity or civilization as a whole.

[voliol]

Ah, sorry for sidestepping your suggestion more or less immediately. I'm glad that it didn't irk you.

So the idea with UNIQUE_LEADER is that each entity can only have one, with the rest being left out? I like how it adds an element of randomness to a more fixed setup. You know you're going to get some pre-made very special leader, but you don't know who, and the generated leaders don't get drowned out by the special ones.

[FantasticDorf]

You can just make enough characters on a file to subsequently fill out a world if you wanted, rival kings and such or have a kingdom end up being inherited through a heir almost like a scripted event, the bloodline being split between the two nations.

Moreso, interesting clown characters, such as the eponymous big-bad for also sidestepping the fact that generated clown dark tower leaders always experiment (making them unplayable, a leading cause of crashes with modifications for dark tower sites), or replace them outright with Sauron/whoever you choose.

[Azerty]

Origin myths are a good idea to impoement, and not only for nations but also for sites (Romulus and Remus), groups (the gens Julia claimed descent from Aeneas), customs (the origin of kingship in a place) and even technologies (several myths describing how a hero invented a device or discovered how to cultivate a crop).

And not all of these myths should be true: some should also be inventer afterwards, by chroniclers wanting to fill a gap or for purposes listed in the following paragraph.

And these myths should have an use: origin myths should be used to justify something, such as the divine right for a family to rule a kingdom, why a given custom shall prevail or how a given elite is descending from the founders of a town and consequently deserve its ranks.

[Thisfox]

Played a fort recently where all of them were obsessed with a human who had tamed a moose about 60 years before the fort was founded. Wall illustrations, if they weren't of specific dwarf civilisation or location subjects, showed the human taming the moose. Sculptures, whether metal, glass, clay or stone, showed the human taming the moose. There were figurines of the human taming the moose. I swear if I could hear their conversations I would have heard them talking about that human taming that moose 60 years ago. It was... funny but odd.

Then several moose walked into my fort, messed up the military (one actually eventually to die of his wounds due to a hilarious and unfortunate mixup with the watersupply) and eventually left the fort, leaving behind a dead bull calf mangled by traps, multiple injured dorfs several of whom lost the ability to walk, and a very messed up suddenly three-legged cat. Perhaps taming moose would in fact take some work. I started having some respect for the human who tamed a godsdamned moose 60 years ago without any injuries...

TLDR: I'm happy with the mythical leaders that are computer generated, personally. They are stranger than fact.