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Author Topic: Breeding with hybdridisation  (Read 1062 times)

Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Breeding with hybdridisation
« on: October 07, 2020, 07:26:39 am »

Or simpler 'crossbreeding'. Creatures will have some tokens for hybrid producing.

Creature has multiple entries (like for attacks, materials et cetera). Firts token specialise creature, caste or class for possible breedings with (and create this type of hybrid). Then may be tokens for specify more creature properties (size range, creature tokens). Fynally is products of hybridisation, with each own chance to born.

So, horce can hybrid with donkey and produce male mul (higher chance, but they are sterille) or female mule. Then female mule can hybrid with horse (ad birth horse) or donkey (and give birht of donkey). Satyrs and generetad night trolls may hybrid with CAN_LEARN creatures and this sexual contact will produce 100% cance satyr or night troll.

Sorrry for erors, I need to sleep.
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Starver

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2020, 10:33:23 am »

(Yes, I recognise the signs of sleeplessness. Or possibly a touchscreen keyboard. Maybe both.)

I think the 'fantasy hybrid' approach is to not make explicit ThisCreature+ThatCreature=HybridCreatur[1] but to allow an intelligent assessment of viability and how to then mix the tags. Which is still a problem not entirely solved.

And fertile Mules (Mollies) are exceedingly rare, to the extent I don't think they're even worth enumerating a chance for their offspring... For much the same reason as any procedural-hybrid in the game is going to have a difficult time to be further procedurally bred on.



[1] The horse would need entries for every non-horse 'allowable'. e.g.: +Donkey=Mule, +Zebra=Zorse, +Eagle=Pegasus, +Man=Centaur (or perhaps a visit by the authorities). And that'd probably need entries for both sire and dam, c.f. the Tigon/Liger differences. A stallion horse + jenny donkey produce a hinny.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2020, 11:12:08 am »

Well, the subject has been touched upon several times, as Starver indicates, and Toady intends to get to it eventually, considering it a hard problem, but not impossible, for his target goal of supporting both magical hybrids (e.g. chimera or the problematic centaur), and natural ones (half dwarf/half elf, of offspring of half elf/dwarf + half goblin/human, etc. [I don't know what the plans are for animal people, as some of them aren't even mammalian {and nor are kobolds}], plus e.g. things like animal breeds).
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Iä! RIAKTOR!

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2020, 03:17:15 pm »

(Yes, I recognise the signs of sleeplessness. Or possibly a touchscreen keyboard. Maybe both.)

I think the 'fantasy hybrid' approach is to not make explicit ThisCreature+ThatCreature=HybridCreatur[1] but to allow an intelligent assessment of viability and how to then mix the tags. Which is still a problem not entirely solved.

And fertile Mules (Mollies) are exceedingly rare, to the extent I don't think they're even worth enumerating a chance for their offspring... For much the same reason as any procedural-hybrid in the game is going to have a difficult time to be further procedurally bred on.



[1] The horse would need entries for every non-horse 'allowable'. e.g.: +Donkey=Mule, +Zebra=Zorse, +Eagle=Pegasus, +Man=Centaur (or perhaps a visit by the authorities). And that'd probably need entries for both sire and dam, c.f. the Tigon/Liger differences. A stallion horse + jenny donkey produce a hinny.
No! Not mixing! Creature has small list of creatures with who can born hybrides, and any hybrid is RAW pre-defined (except generated creatures). No pegasus or centaurs (except in zoophilia mods).

This is reason for add chances. Second reason for chances (and reason for add hybridisation with classes) is monogendered species.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2020, 04:14:59 pm »

The only reason fertile mules are exceedingly rare is because nobody is TRYING HARD ENOUGH. If I had, like, a wildlife preserve, I would 100% be breeding horses and donkeys in an effort to get the rare couple of fertile ones and breed those to establish them as a separate species.

It would be great to be able to do that in DF.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2020, 05:18:57 pm »

(Yes, I recognise the signs of sleeplessness. Or possibly a touchscreen keyboard. Maybe both.)

I think the 'fantasy hybrid' approach is to not make explicit ThisCreature+ThatCreature=HybridCreatur[1] but to allow an intelligent assessment of viability and how to then mix the tags. Which is still a problem not entirely solved.

And fertile Mules (Mollies) are exceedingly rare, to the extent I don't think they're even worth enumerating a chance for their offspring... For much the same reason as any procedural-hybrid in the game is going to have a difficult time to be further procedurally bred on.



[1] The horse would need entries for every non-horse 'allowable'. e.g.: +Donkey=Mule, +Zebra=Zorse, +Eagle=Pegasus, +Man=Centaur (or perhaps a visit by the authorities). And that'd probably need entries for both sire and dam, c.f. the Tigon/Liger differences. A stallion horse + jenny donkey produce a hinny.
No! Not mixing! Creature has small list of creatures with who can born hybrides, and any hybrid is RAW pre-defined (except generated creatures). No pegasus or centaurs (except in zoophilia mods).

This is reason for add chances. Second reason for chances (and reason for add hybridisation with classes) is monogendered species.
Toady has mentioned both natural and unnatural breeding. Unnatural breeding would involve magic and generate things like pegasii and centaurs, while natural breeding presumably would rely on raws indicating which ones are compatible. The context in which this has been discussed, as far as I know, has been the main sapient races, although if the logic is set up you'd presumably be able to modify the raws which would probably have constraints such as compatible morphology (tail being optional? horns?...), as well as other ones (e.g. both being e.g. mammals, size constraints [pixie + giant is probably out on that account]?).
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Starver

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2020, 06:20:11 pm »

No! Not mixing! Creature has small list of creatures with who can born hybrides, and any hybrid is RAW pre-defined (except generated creatures).
That could take a lot of work, starting with deciding which combinations and outcomes to insert.  Maybe there's been work done on this already.

Quote
No pegasus or centaurs (except in zoophilia mods).
My little joke about horse-sex aside (which I don't think is even the widely accepted mythical origin of centaurs[1]), Pegasus isn't actually from any zoophilic act[2] in the traditional sense. Of course, Toady can and possibly may do anything with (or without) these options, or at least in giving the game the option (perhaps governed by the high-fantasy/ultra-realistic 'universe dial' he's thinking of adding, even if he puts the stock reactions in the raws for just the small proportion of worldgens that need them).

And as you just want the facility, leaving it up to you as to which to Mod in, I don't think you can complain if it's used to (say) cross Giant Scorpians with Carp to get Kea, even if we might both think that'd be absurdity for any world. (Also somewhat difficult to engineer the in-game circumstances!)

Quote
This is reason for add chances. Second reason for chances (and reason for add hybridisation with classes) is monogendered species.
I've seen you're messing about with that sort of thing (did I respond to one of your other threads on this, or did I cancel the message..? But I think I had a suggestion in mind, whatever it was again... Hope someone else helped, if I didn't...). If you're waiting on this update just for your own current project, I think you'll have to stand in line behind the Kitfox people's 'requests' for Steam/Itch improvements/etc.

But you never know precisely what might pop out of the pipeline...


Max: I appreciate the sentiment, but there's been (*checks*) not even three digits'-worth of confirmed fertile she-mules over more than half a millenium, and I wouldn't know where to start with estimating how many regular jennies (and jacks) have ever been bred prior to modern mechanised transportation largely usurping their usefulness. And it is a (biblically noted) extremely rare event, if you start to look to antiquity.

[1] IIRC, that was a king who was human (or maybe even demi-god, as a son of Ares) coupling with a (non-equine) nymph who was pretending to be a goddess. But that's the ancient Greeks for you!
[2] Maybe necrophilia. The Pegasus was 'fathered' by Poseidon (one of the original Olympians of direct Titan stock) through the spilled blood of a freshly decapitated Medusa (some other more ancient sea-god/-monster parentage), with a twin brother also ensuing from the act, who is himself a giant/large 'human'. One way or another, there definitely must have been something in the water...
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Nordlicht

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2020, 12:30:59 pm »


Toady has mentioned both natural and unnatural breeding. Unnatural breeding would involve magic and generate things like pegasii and centaurs, while natural breeding presumably would rely on raws indicating which ones are compatible. The context in which this has been discussed, as far as I know, has been the main sapient races, although if the logic is set up you'd presumably be able to modify the raws which would probably have constraints such as compatible morphology (tail being optional? horns?...), as well as other ones (e.g. both being e.g. mammals, size constraints [pixie + giant is probably out on that account]?).

I think the most efficient way would be dna like, where the computer can decides if it works, but it sounds like a lot of data to enter for each creature. Maybe it would open the way to evolution? Explicitly stating everything possible will lead to either weird edge cases or a huge amount of additional data to get them out. Although with both being similar sized mammals i'd like to see the dolphinape.
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Azerty

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2020, 02:24:43 pm »

Should taxonomy be introduced to enable an easier modeling of hybrids?
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"Just tell me about the bits with the forest-defending part, the sociopath part is pretty normal dwarf behavior."

Eric Blank

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2020, 04:45:39 pm »

Iirc, and I totally might not because I've been part of this community for like 12 years now, the last time I saw a thread on this topic both this particular suggestion of raw-defined hybrids linked to the parent species and modelling mixing directly were discussed. Raw-linked hybrids sounds easy, obviously, because all you have to do is make a system to properly link the critters. The procedural mixing of raw information to build hybrids on the fly is the hard part, but also exactly what Toady wanted to do from the beginning, and not linked directly to any of the development arcs that he's been working on over the last five or so years. But, it sounds like the perfect kind of thing for the myth and magic arc starting in the next year or so, where hybrid/generated playable races and monsters will appear more often in the world.

I would personally love to have either option, where I could define a hybrid I want to be used in a particular usage case (especially for Spellcrafts, where I would like certain night creatures to have origins in other species), and get procedurally generated hybrids on the side.

The basic structure of procedurally generated hybrids has to follow the rules of the raws themselves, where materials go into tissues which are used on body parts. A hybrid would have to start by combining the lists of materials and tissues of each of the parent species and then cross reference their body plans. If they both have quadruped_neck_hoof as the basic body plan (where the head, upper body and lower body are defined) then the choice is easy, but if one has quadruped_neck_hoof and the other is quadruped_neck (used for dogs and most quadrupeds that have feet/paws not hooves) then it has to choose, presumably a coinflip. Then the game should include every other body part that is shared by both parents, and coinflip on parts that are exclusive to one or the other. Then inherit the blood of one or both parents (it could be trying to merge a human and a spider for instance, where spiders bleed ichor but humans have blood) and decide if other additional tissue additions (like nails, hair, feathers, quills etc) apply based on which body parts it chose, i.e. if it chose quadruped with hoof, nails should be ommited because there isn't an appropriate body part to put them on. But if it combined a humanoid and a quadruped hoof body, making a centaur type thing, it should apply nails to the human fingers because it inherited finger body parts and the humanoid definition had nails on its fingers, but drop the reference to nails on the toes since it inherited hooves and has no appropriate body parts to put them on.

Mixing scales and skin becomes a problem though. If I chose to combine a crocodile and a donkey, and chose a donkey's body plan as the base, I would apply skin and body hair to everything inherited from the donkey and scales to everything inherited from the crocodile. The weird bit there is, the donkey has more body parts than the crocodile, and the crocodile has all of the body parts of a donkey minus a few iirc. So it would all end up with skin. But if it chose the crocodiles body as a base and covered it all with scales it could still inherit the donkeys ears, which the crocodile lacks, and thus put skin and fur on the ears, because they're donkey ears, even though almost every other part has scales.

But creatures where different castes have different body plans, like deer (where males have antlers and females don't) screw it up again. Do you choose to use the body plan from only caste? Or do you tell it to give the child race two different body plans for it's castes, taking attributes exclusive to the [MALE] parent and putting them on the [MALE] child and so on with the female. And what do you do with a creature that has more than two castes? Do you create the same number of castes for your child race? My Vutchnell creatures for instance have male and female versions of high, average and low castes (although they all have the same body plan, they have different physical and mental attributes and low Vutchnell lack the intelligence flag). If that definition was to be merged with elves, which have two castes, then should the child inherit the six caste structure and everything copied over from the Vutchnell castes' attributes, averaging the actual attribute differences against the elves, resulting in six castes of vutlves or whatever that are, high-averaged-with-elves, average-averaged-with-elves, and low-averaged-with-elves in terms of attributes and flags like the INTELLIGENT token.

But if handling multiple castes is too hard to program, and we do get a linked-raw-creature-hybridization, I can tell the game "a Vutchnell + a goblin = a gnoll" and it spit out gnolls whenever Vutchnell marry goblins.


(Or does my employer write me up for spending 45 minutes typing on my phone?)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 04:50:02 pm by Eric Blank »
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Pillbo

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2020, 05:05:58 pm »

Should taxonomy be introduced to enable an easier modeling of hybrids?

Like class inheritance? Something like:

Horse extends Ruminant that extends Mammal, that extends Quadruped, that extends Vertebrate, that extends Animal

So a horse gets 4 legs, a backbone, a brain and organs, skin, fat, hair, live birth, diet etc from all it's parent classes and only needs species-level specific changes. Then you can try to combine the species-level changes from Horse and Donkey to create a hybrid?

You might want to make a name combiner too if you were going for weird hybrids like a crocodile-lion.  Not sure how it could work but it might be fun to break words into syllables/possibly drop letters and swap them around to get 'crocolion', 'lionodile', 'crion', 'lirocodile'. You'd get some funny stuff for sure, it wouldn't come up with 'mule' but maybe 'zonkey'.

(Yes, I recognise the signs of sleeplessness. Or possibly a touchscreen keyboard. Maybe both.)
No! Not mixing! Creature has small list of creatures with who can born hybrides, and any hybrid is RAW pre-defined (except generated creatures). No pegasus or centaurs (except in zoophilia mods).

I recognize signs of something... maybe related to ogre milking.
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Azerty

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Re: Breeding with hybdridisation
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2020, 02:16:46 pm »

Should taxonomy be introduced to enable an easier modeling of hybrids?

Like class inheritance? Something like:

Horse extends Ruminant that extends Mammal, that extends Quadruped, that extends Vertebrate, that extends Animal

So a horse gets 4 legs, a backbone, a brain and organs, skin, fat, hair, live birth, diet etc from all it's parent classes and only needs species-level specific changes. Then you can try to combine the species-level changes from Horse and Donkey to create a hybrid?

You might want to make a name combiner too if you were going for weird hybrids like a crocodile-lion.  Not sure how it could work but it might be fun to break words into syllables/possibly drop letters and swap them around to get 'crocolion', 'lionodile', 'crion', 'lirocodile'. You'd get some funny stuff for sure, it wouldn't come up with 'mule' but maybe 'zonkey'.

This is how I presented it here.
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