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Author Topic: Religious Consolidation  (Read 1084 times)

Blastbeard

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Religious Consolidation
« on: February 18, 2020, 02:50:25 pm »

The number of religions that form during world gen can get out of hand as history progresses.

Spoiler: Large-ish Image (click to show/hide)

That's six different religions dedicated to the same god, out of a possible thirty-one objects of worship, in a hamlet with less than a hundred people. I haven't bothered to do the math, but at a glance it just doesn't look right to me. This is not an isolated incident, neither in the world I used as an example, which is 256 years old, or my experiences as a whole, with worlds which are generally 500 years old.

Having so many identical groups seems redundant. It would be one thing if these were isolated sects unique for every site, but right now you can get any number of different religions to the same god spread unevenly across a civilization, and the only thing distinguishing them is their name. Sometimes, they don't even have that much going for them.

Spoiler: Sloppily Cropped Image (click to show/hide)

I think there needs to be a way to cull the number of religions down to something more manageable, or at least keep it low enough that the chances two religions share the same name are slim to none.

One way would be to consolidate redundant religions as time goes on. If two religious orders worshipping the same figure occupy the same site, sooner or later their members are going to mingle. If this happens, the two religions may officialy merge to form a new faith. This could snowball until you have a single religion for a given deity encompassing an entire site or possibly the whole civilization. New religions dedicated to that deity may periodically branch off or form independently, and they may or may not merge into the larger faith as time passes.

Another method would be to give people the ability to abandon religions and convert to new ones, either worshipping a deity or religion observed by at least one other person in their site, or simply going faithless with a chance to adopt a new religion at a later date. They could choose to do this for a number of reasons, such as being convinced or forced to convert by someone else, through a bad experience such as a deity curse, or simply because they lose interest in the religion. The number of living members a religion has should play a factor, with larger religions being more appealing than smaller ones that worship the same deity. Personal relationships should matter too, with people being more likely to convert to their spouse's religion, or remaining with their current one solely because their parents were members.

Both methods would lead to a pattern of larger religions eating up smaller ones as time goes on. This would keep the number of religions down to something more sane, but it would also make it harder for new religions to form. This may not appeal to everyone, but personally I would prefer something like this over having to sift through three or more pages of religions just to find one that doesn't worship a god of lies when I intend to play as an honest do-gooder, or just worship a deity directlty.
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Loam

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Re: Religious Consolidation
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2020, 10:33:20 am »

I, too, have noticed the proliferation of religions, especially in long-history worlds, and the most popular deities don't always make sense to me: one world had probably several dozen religions dedicated to the god of revenge (which admittedly is a popular idea, but to base several religions on it?) I'd say the number of allowed religions per deity should simply be cut way back - probably just one per god.

But, otherwise, +1 to the consolidation idea: criminal organizations can now consolidate, so why not extend that behavior to religions (and maybe other entities) as well?

I've also noticed that the number of gods seems to have skyrocketed: some civilizations will have pages of gods listed in Legends Mode. That, too, I think contributes to some of the late-history confusion, since many or most of those gods can have multiple religions worshiping them. It's probably why there are so many monks and monasteries (which are buggy as anything right now) and so many priests clogging up keeps and mead-halls (with the bugs that can cause: #0011266). I don't know if this increase in gods is intentional or a bug in itself, but either way I think it needs to be addressed.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Religious Consolidation
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 01:31:27 pm »

Organised religions actually worshipping more than one god at the same shrine, or least overlapping spheres would be a revelation in keeping dwarf civilization (and others) intact and allowing the merging of shrines in fortress mode too.

Though i personally think its just prophets going completely ham making up sects all the while as is whether they are legitimately recieving divine inspiration or not that's lead us to this in the first place. In a petri-dish of closed testing conditions, they spread like a rash everywhere and convert a world of atheists #0011345.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 01:33:07 pm by FantasticDorf »
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Blastbeard

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Re: Religious Consolidation
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2020, 12:26:01 pm »

I, too, have noticed the proliferation of religions, especially in long-history worlds, and the most popular deities don't always make sense to me: one world had probably several dozen religions dedicated to the god of revenge (which admittedly is a popular idea, but to base several religions on it?) I'd say the number of allowed religions per deity should simply be cut way back - probably just one per god.

A lot of these religions don't make sense, such as a dwarven god of oceans for a landlocked dwarf civilization. Adding [SPHERE_ALIGNMENT:(sphere):0] to the entity file might prevent weird and bloated pantheons, but you'd have to add a tag for every single sphere you don't want, and there's no guarantee it's going to work with the uncertain nature of things right now.

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I've also noticed that the number of gods seems to have skyrocketed: some civilizations will have pages of gods listed in Legends Mode. That, too, I think contributes to some of the late-history confusion, since many or most of those gods can have multiple religions worshiping them. It's probably why there are so many monks and monasteries (which are buggy as anything right now) and so many priests clogging up keeps and mead-halls (with the bugs that can cause: #0011266). I don't know if this increase in gods is intentional or a bug in itself, but either way I think it needs to be addressed.

I know exactly what you're talking about when it comes to too many priests, I've started to dread trips to keeps and mead halls for fear that the sheer number of these guys is going to tank my FPS or crash the game outright. The number of religious figures probably wouldn't be so bad if they stuck to relevant sites. If they spread themselves out between monasteries, temples, and their current haunts, we'd probably see less of these mosh pits. It's probably tied to whatever compels site-owning nobles to hang around the same site as a civilization's leader, and I hope the two issues die the same death.

Organised religions actually worshipping more than one god at the same shrine, or least overlapping spheres would be a revelation in keeping dwarf civilization (and others) intact and allowing the merging of shrines in fortress mode too.

I can get behind a polytheistic religion, but I'd rather see religions where several deities have related but individual spheres rather than multiple gods that share spheres. A religion that worships a god of death, lies, and trickery, a goddess of death, blight, and disease, and a god of death, war, and misery sounds redundant, edgy, and a little boring to me. Perhaps civilizations should start with one religon of every deity in the original pantheon, as well as a single religion dedicated to all of those deities at once, and let things branch out from there.
One possible issue with polytheistic religions is shrine effects. I'm having trouble keeping track of which shrine is dedicated to what god already, which ends up with me getting cursed because I metaphorically and literally rolled the dice with a certain deity too many times because I couldn't tell who I was dealing with based on the statue alone. If these shrines were dedicated to muliple deities, I could see that being a bigger problem.

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Though i personally think its just prophets going completely ham making up sects all the while as is whether they are legitimately recieving divine inspiration or not that's lead us to this in the first place. In a petri-dish of closed testing conditions, they spread like a rash everywhere and convert a world of atheists #0011345.

My theory was that it was necromancers or other villains starting religions as part of their operations, given most of these religions are centered around death or other negative concepts, but prophets starting new faiths on a whim makes more sense. In either event, I'd have to say giving people the ability to drop out of religions is absolutely vital. Sure, you might sign up with that religion of lust and depravity seeing as that crazy old man made a compelling argument, but after he dies of old age and you find out he started it just to get laid one last time as opposed to any divine guidance, you're probably not going to keep the faith.
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Dorfthefort123

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Re: Religious Consolidation
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2020, 10:21:53 am »

Perhaps an inquisition mechanic might help?
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: Religious Consolidation
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2020, 04:06:02 pm »

Perhaps an inquisition mechanic might help?
I don't think any of this is an issue since it was fixed in 47.04.
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