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Author Topic: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)  (Read 5153 times)

Bumber

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Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2019, 01:52:25 pm »
Quote from: anthony62490 on February 20, 2019, 07:43:17 pm
Hey. Me again. This may be only of academic interest, but the name "Oggez Rashas" (of Bronzemurdered fame) is not naturally attainable as far as I can tell. "Oggez" is a valid first name (meaning "The Hole" in Dwarven), but Rashas is not a word in any language as far as I can tell. Maybe it was different in 0.31, but I cant find evidence of it. The closest matches I could find are "Náshas" (Lilacs, which would be culled via Dwarven naming rules against FLOWERY names) and "Sashas" (Rushing, which is oddly not included in any language_SYM pool).
So I'm  not actually sure what Oggez Rashas's name means beyond "The Hole of ____"
Wouldn't the last name be two words put together?
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Quote from: Ispil on August 30, 2018, 01:17:08 pm
Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

anthony62490

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Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2019, 12:27:43 am »
Sometimes yes, but Forgotten Beast names often follow different rules. They CAN have normal "Noun Word-Word" names like all other entities, but their names seem to fall into one of (I think) four categories:
  • X
  • Xx
  • The Y of Z (Oggez Rashas fits this template)
  • X the Y of Z
    • Where X is a NOUN
    • Where Xx is a standard NOUN WORDWORD name
    • Where Y is a number of words
    • Normally 1 or 2, occasionally 3. Im still collecting stats on this
    • If Y is 1 word, it should be a NOUN
    • If Y is 2 or 3 words, the first one should have an ADJ form
    • Where Z has a VERB form

This does not account for epithets, which add another layer of complexity to the name. And furthermore, it IS possible that "Rashas" could be a combination of two words, but I was unable to find them and very few dwarven words are that short anyway. If you'd like to take a look, you're more than welcome. http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Template:Language_table
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 12:40:15 am by anthony62490 »
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feelotraveller

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Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2019, 01:19:18 am »
I wonder if it wasn't (correctly) Rashäs ?
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anthony62490

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Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2019, 11:27:08 am »
Woah. Hold up. I found it. I have no idea how I missed this before. His name is Oggez Råsh äs, "The Hole of Dying Caves". How did I not see that earlier? Bumber, you are absolutely correct.

EDIT: Hold up again. His name actually closer fits the "Xx" template now. The previous translation doesn't actually match any naming format I've come across yet. So his translated name is probably closer to "Oggez Deathcaves". Shockingly appropriate.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 11:29:36 am by anthony62490 »
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2019, 06:14:54 am »
I thought that "A BC The X of Y" names generally indicated a title given to them as a reslt of historical deeds
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anthony62490

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Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2019, 11:21:26 pm »
Yes, you are correct. That doesn't fit the standard templates and indicates a more complex name. I haven't had time to really dive into epithets yet, but I'll eventually get a working formula figured out. It'll be interesting to see how multiple epithets pile on top of each other.
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anthony62490

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Re: Dwarven Census (Dwarf naming -Science-)
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2019, 01:52:42 pm »
So I've finished the first version of my name generator (now conveniently available at d0rfforge.com. plug plug) and I'm looking to make it more accurate. Right now, it only uses the base word and completely ignores tenses, plurals, verb/adjective forms, and all those other boring grammar rules. In order to conform to those rules, I need to know WHAT those rules are, The raws give a lot of information, but it's all in Toady's weird token-based data structure. Gross.

The Wiki says that
Quote
First Names are always nouns
Second Names are always two-word pairs and can be any combination of word types, but Noun-Noun, Adjective-Noun, and Verb-Noun appear to be the most common

So I pretty much need to reverse engineer Toady's naming rules. I've never done this before, but I imagine if I can get a big enough list of dwarves, I'll be able to find a pattern in their naming schemes that I can actually use. So...
  • I started with 40 dwarves
  • I clipped off the first name (since I already know it's always a singular noun and it's never translated anyway)
  • I dug around in the language_words file and extracted a list of all word forms for each word
  • A whole bunch of boring programming stuff made them easier to work with
  • I wrote a script that looks at each dwarf's name, finds the base word, and spits out all of the possible choices it did/didn't use

Just for context, here's what ONE word looks like with 2 noun forms, 5 verb forms, 1 adjective form, and no prefix forms
Code: [Select]
"blockade": new DFWord("blockade:blockades", "blockade:blockades:blockaded:blockaded:blockading", "blockaded", null)
And here's what the script spit out. The (bit in parentheses) denotes how many nouns, verbs, adjectives, and prefixes there are to choose from while the [bit in brackets] denotes which options are available and which were chosen.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This looks an awful lot like a game of Mastermind, but there might not even be an answer this time. language_words indicates that all words have designated spots where certain forms are used ([REAR_COMPOUND_NOUN_SING] probably means that IF this word is chosen for the 3rd word, use the singular noun form), but this isn't easily digestible and it'll take a lot of time for not much payoff.

SO. I split the names up into front and rear compound groups and got these two lovelies. I've separated them based on which word forms are available and sorted them based on unique configurations.
FRONT COMPONENT
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
REAR COMPONENT
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not certain that I see any patterns yet, but I might be able to pull a few good approximations out of this.
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