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[FantasticDorf]

It goes without saying that people a tiny bit suprised that even while the stress related factors more properly adjusted to account for different circumstances, it only applies mono-racially in not very contrasted Dwarven society and exaggerates the horror of sieges & enemies still.

Death, I am not disturbed by this.
How easily we are broken, this is not upsetting.
Is horrified to see the snatcher die.

Though the actual act may be unpleasant, you can probably afford to seperate out some discipline gain instead form killing a unit without the nessecary horror being present by use of "feels 'Relief' to see the snatcher die" and other such emotions, because their presence invoking either feelings of vengance, duty to protect others and themselves can play a factor to not exactly being pleased to end the life of another being, but certainly glad to see the threat is dead.

When two civilizations are opposed to each other politically this would take in the factor of -

/ where is the unit im fighting from, are they my enemy?

/ How do i know this unit personally

Which means that while you might still be horrified seeing dwarves die over comparably other creatures, unrelated dwarves from your civilization that are being maimed such as in a civil war scenario, attacking another kingdom etc, won't garner the same amount of response horror-wise making those battles a bit easier.

[Ninjabread]

Wording it that way might put across the wrong message, witnessing the death of the snatcher isn't what brings relief, it's knowing that the children are safe. As you say, the actual act may be seen as unpleasant, which is why that isn't what causes the good thought, it could even still cause a bad thought if Toady wants dorfs to be caring, sensitive, and empathetic, which seems to be the case, though it's important that said bad thought is less intense than the good thought, cause we don't want people having breakdowns because they survived a siege, as they currently do.

[Maximum Spin]

The fundamental problem that keeps cropping up seems to be that "caring, sensitive, and empathetic" people (in real life) respond to death in different ways, and very often each believe that their own personal ways of doing so are normatively correct. Though it's hard to be objective here, I also get the impression that the particular group who are exceptionally squeamish about death are even more likely to think that so being is "right" and that people who aren't are uncaring, insensitive, and/or unempathetic; these people therefore oppose the idea that dwarves might have more realistic attitudes toward the death of an enemy because they find it unaesthetic.

[5crownik007]

In World War II, fewer than a quarter of troops fired their weapons in the general direction of the enemy.^[1] Modern armies were very reliant on a very small number of people doing most of the killing. In this excellent video by Lindybeige he essentially explains that most of the troops on the battlefield didn't really want to kill anyone, but;

witnessing the death of the snatcher isn't what brings relief, it's knowing that the children are safe.

It's mentioned in that video that out of the 2% of people on the battlefield who shoot to kill, 1% are psychopaths(lacking empathy for their enemy) and the other 1% are deeply motivated to protect their own comrades(due to reasons explained in the video)
That latter percent of those fighters would be the ones who would be relieved "knowing that the children are safe"

Most people don't like killing other people.

[Ninjabread]

Maximum Spin, I don't really consider myself a shining example of care, sensitivity, or empathy as you seem to be suggesting, if you had read properly you'd know I was simply referring to the fact that Toady has made dwarves not like witnessing death, unless they have high discipline, in which case they are decidedly neutral on the subject, and taking this into account it seems that under certain circumstances, a counterweight good thought might be a good way to stop dwarves going insane because they didn't get killed in that siege. I personally think attitude towards death should be governed by a range of things, like context (as this thread's OP suggests), culture, and personality, and these may indeed play a part later on when Toady realises goblins aren't as gleeful about murder and sadism as the dev page suggests they're supposed to be.

5crownik007, at about 21:45 on that video Lloyd kinda points out why that's only really an issue in modern warfare: The whole 2% thing only really applies when you're in a situation where you don't feel directly and immediately threatened, the 2% would be the guys chasing terrified snatchers off the map to make sure they never harm the children again. Everyone would be relieved that the guy who wanted to steal the children is gone, even if they're not too happy about seeing said kidnapper's brain get pierced, hence the counterweight thoughts thing.

[Dorsidwarf]

I still think driving off sieges or ambushes should give a strong positive thought to the entire fortress for weathering the enemy attack

Would help alleviate the horror of having to haul a literal sea of corpses to the dumping grounds

[Shonai_Dweller]

I still think driving off sieges or ambushes should give a strong positive thought to the entire fortress for weathering the enemy attack

Would help alleviate the horror of having to haul a literal sea of corpses to the dumping grounds

Does the miner 200 z-levels down know that a hunter fought off a 2-goblin 'siege' far away on the surface?

Perhaps dorfs could get good thoughts about hearing how their invicible military is protecting them night and day at the tavern, but a magical 'happy-wave' doesn't seem right.

[Dorsidwarf]

I still think driving off sieges or ambushes should give a strong positive thought to the entire fortress for weathering the enemy attack

Would help alleviate the horror of having to haul a literal sea of corpses to the dumping grounds

Does the miner 200 z-levels down know that a hunter fought off a 2-goblin 'siege' far away on the surface?

Perhaps dorfs could get good thoughts about hearing how their invicible military is protecting them night and day at the tavern, but a magical 'happy-wave' doesn't seem right.

I mean if you go by that logic you have to remove all the cases of instant news propagation in the fortress.

[Shonai_Dweller]

I still think driving off sieges or ambushes should give a strong positive thought to the entire fortress for weathering the enemy attack

Would help alleviate the horror of having to haul a literal sea of corpses to the dumping grounds

Does the miner 200 z-levels down know that a hunter fought off a 2-goblin 'siege' far away on the surface?

Perhaps dorfs could get good thoughts about hearing how their invicible military is protecting them night and day at the tavern, but a magical 'happy-wave' doesn't seem right.

I mean if you go by that logic you have to remove all the cases of instant news propagation in the fortress.

Such as?
What other info is transferred to dorf minds instantly?
Death of a family member is, I think. Anything else?

[Putnam]

i'm actually pretty sure death of a family member isn't, they need to become aware of the incident through conversation or witnessing the body afaik

[Shonai_Dweller]

i'm actually pretty sure death of a family member isn't, they need to become aware of the incident through conversation or witnessing the body afaik

Ah, my mistake. So, there's really no precedent for fortress-wide thoughts at all then?

[Maximum Spin]

i'm actually pretty sure death of a family member isn't, they need to become aware of the incident through conversation or witnessing the body afaik

Ah, my mistake. So, there's really no precedent for fortress-wide thoughts at all then?

There used to be, but they get removed over time, because they're "game-y".

[Dorsidwarf]

Then I guess the "siege lifted" thought can propagate down from the dwarves on the surface down to Loner Mc Lonesome the miner mining adamantium like other thoughts