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Author Topic: Evolution Chart  (Read 1893 times)

Bidyhackier

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Evolution Chart
« on: December 18, 2016, 11:36:08 am »

 So,i Made this post for a technical analysis of the basic 5 civilizations and their potential strenghts,so far i checked technology and it goes as far as this
 Dwarves-they are able to produce formidable amounts of steel,material other nations see to not even know of
 Humans-They mainly produce bronze and iron,1 tier less than Said steel produced by dwarves
 Goblins-They dont exactly produce,they just salvage what they can,but that usually includes metal,putting them one tier above the:
 Elves-dont use metal of any sort,making their wooden weapons useless against a steel-clad Dwarf,or even a bronze-clad Goblin
 Kobolds-still a bunch of neandhertals tampering with rock tools

 I dont know about the other species any further,and would like help analising stuff like:bodily strenght and martial prowess,and maybe there are other things too
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lol why is patience the key characteristic to defeating an elephant? I can just imagine years of psychological torture and mind games until one of you just takes their own life.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2016, 06:41:19 pm »

I'd rank it Goblins>Humans>Dwarves?elves>Kobolds, when it comes to worldgen:

Goblins are best, because
a) no drink/eat/old age enables them to grow typically faster than any other civilization - even when limited to 1 site, goblin growth tends to outpace human/dwarf/elven growth on large plains/forests.
b) demon masters alone make seeing µ a rare sight on world map, as megabeasts tend to get wrecked by them (while in case of other civilizations, a megabeast will usually easily wipe out the burgeoning settlements at start of history, with elves having the best chance with giant elephants)

Their try to war bit too much, but it is still better than how passive dwarves are (defenders are at disadvantage in battles).

Humans second. They are mortal, which is a rather massive problem with vampires (a single well-placed vampire can get thousands of kills).

However, their towns are by far frequently the most attractive immigration destinations by a magnitude, making it common to see human towns getting thousands of primarily goblins moving into it, sometimes in just a decade even.

Without breathing space to build towns, they're might be the worst civilized people (though they can still conquer, even then). That said, even then they're more likely to reclaim or take over ruined hillocks than dwarves are.

Humans and goblins are the only races who can regularly build their major sites up to 10k sentient population.

Dwarves VS elves varies.

Dwarves are limited to just mountains for building fortresses, while needing to expand into hillocks to survive any real time usually - otherwise, they're typically nommed by FB and done for. But they don't need plains to put civilization downs, which can lead to easily doomed fortress. Then there's their aversion to conquering enemy sites, without which they can't really counterattack.

And of course they're mortal, which means vampires and werebeasts.

However, they do start with major site regardless of neighbours, with twice the pop as other civs, and that site can also get underground animal people such as gorlaks. Furthermore, they're bit less likely to have a war than other civs


Elves can immediately expand into surrounding forests, and are not mortal, but they're probably most war-like after goblins with their disagreeable ethics. Their major forest retreats tend to have few times more population than dwarven fortresses, but are not really different in attractiveness to visitors.

Kobolds do worst in my experience, rarely conquering any sites or expanding lot past the initial 100 they start with.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 06:45:02 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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Bidyhackier

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 09:09:50 am »

Yea,I agree,i have seen many pocket worlds be overrun with goblins the first 125 years,but gameplay-wise,they dont seem to be much trouble,both in fort. or adv. as a dwarf,but i heard once that they dont care about weaponry in worldgen,so a hundred of dwarves against a thousand of goblins,counts as a hundred NAKED dwarves against a thousand NAKED goblins.
now,what about early game? Based on my experiences:
Humans:Amazing meele combat,can grab,throw,pinch and break locks as easy as 123 against smaller targets like the main factions
Goblins:No need to bother with mundane stuff,so you can build in peace(or kill stuff if you want)
Elves:Because of the animal peace thing i managed to hunt a lot of animals,and with that leathermaking mods,it makes a huge difference
Dwarves:Their overpowered weapons make them do quick work of anything
Kobolds:Maybe There Is Something....

 So,Humans Are Deadly On Unarmed,Dwarves Are Deadly when armed because of their early game stuff,Elves are perfect for hunting,Goblins are immortals that dont need anything to live,and Kobolds... Well... Kobolds suck

 As every main race has a strong vantage,i dont find a amazing drawback for most of them,so far i found
Humans:I Dont Know
Goblins:Hated by main factions
Elves:Wooden early game weaponry means fast death
Dwarves:Being smaller than humans makes them usually die on their camps full of wrestlers
Kobolds:small,weak weapons,ranged is limited to throwing and a blowgun,Hated By Main factions
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lol why is patience the key characteristic to defeating an elephant? I can just imagine years of psychological torture and mind games until one of you just takes their own life.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2016, 04:30:29 pm »

No idea about what mods you speak of, and these are quite some mods if your dwarves and humans meet each other in camps full of wrestlers in fort mode. Can't embark as anything other than dwarves in vanilla.

Kobolds are trapavoid.

As far as comparisons of vanilla weapons go, dwarves don't have overpowered weapons (whips, morningstars, great+ axes, long+ swords anyone) but overpowered metals (steel).

imperium3

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2016, 06:20:31 am »

Would I be correct in saying that dwarves are the only ones who can make items with high quality levels? I don't think I've ever seen them in the human caravan or when out adventuring.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2016, 06:51:19 am »

I think it is less dwarves and more player fortresses only - never had a dwarven caravan bring me masterful anything other than book.

Bidyhackier

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2016, 10:15:11 pm »

No idea about what mods you speak of, and these are quite some mods if your dwarves and humans meet each other in camps full of wrestlers in fort mode.
I think you misunderstood me,i meant on adv. mode,not fortress,as i am horrible on fort mode and dont usually play it at all,and btw,


OFF TOPIC:tested and a steel whip is a gamebreaker.
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lol why is patience the key characteristic to defeating an elephant? I can just imagine years of psychological torture and mind games until one of you just takes their own life.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2016, 11:51:00 pm »

Ah, I rarely touch adventure mode - still, you mentioned leatherworking mods.

Since you set your own stats and skills in adventure mode, I guess those racial advantages don't matter, making humans better off than usual (can you trance with dwarf in adventure mode? If not...)

Heh. If you want a whip (or morningstar - also good, but better with sharper material against inorganics), any weapon-grade metal will do; might need to start from human or goblin civ though, or to travel to their sites to find one.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 11:52:54 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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Killgoth

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 01:41:20 pm »

Evolutionarily speaking, the Goblins are the neanderthals.  Their immortality and lack of hunger means that not only are their genes not get mixed up, but a lot of the activities that caused humans to evolve higher-order intelligence and social skills are completely absent in their society.  I realize we are talking about a magical world, but what I am saying is that as a society they are what they are and they will always be that way.  Other species can grow and evolve.  They can't.

If the game went on long enough, kobalds would eventually outstrip goblins in sophistication.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 01:43:58 pm by Killgoth »
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Demicus

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2016, 04:34:21 pm »

Evolutionarily speaking, the Goblins are the neanderthals.  Their immortality and lack of hunger means that not only are their genes not get mixed up, but a lot of the activities that caused humans to evolve higher-order intelligence and social skills are completely absent in their society.  I realize we are talking about a magical world, but what I am saying is that as a society they are what they are and they will always be that way.  Other species can grow and evolve.  They can't.

If the game went on long enough, kobalds would eventually outstrip goblins in sophistication.
Goblins appear to like stealing(mostly children though) and pillaging. So their society and technology can likely improve through pilfering the advancements from other beings and the creative drives of the kidnapped children raised in goblin society.
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Dwarf Fortress: The weak shall be culled, so the strong can have nicer socks.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2016, 05:20:12 pm »

I see a few problems with that idea.

1st, iirc according to prevailing theory it was not the hunger (plenty of animals aren't that smart yet still sate it) but the social brinkmanship and one-upping, attempting to become a leader, that provided the pressure.

With goblin culture often being about ruling, and having no compunctions about killing and taking over the previous rule or going to war with others (or themselves, sometimes), there is perhaps more pressure towards this than amongst more random humans. In an active world, a small minority of goblins live longer than few hundred years.

Death from old age is hardly what applies pressure towards this - and in DF, with werebeasts, vampires and necromancers, if you're mortal and are determined to not die from old age you have a fair chance, though you'll have to give up on having children. Which means that avoiding that is not particularly selected for, and rather undercuts using lack of this against elves, because...

2nd: less worries from death, starvation and drink means that two successful married goblins breed a lot, giving lot of the mixing you so held supreme.

Dwarves start with 200, and all other civs with 100 members, but the growth rate of goblins vastly outstrips any other cultures. Generally, among those with families goblins have biggest family trees. And entrenching arguments for multiple generation superiority is troubled by the 10 year marriage age limit in game forcing those in newest generation to seek out others their age. 


Now, there is a soft cap of around 10k goblins in a dark fortress...But civilizations decrease the savagery of areas near them, with more sites = quicker drop.

This means if goblins and any other civ are both put into equal pockets of low-savagery with high-savagery borders, goblins will break out sooner, which means higher population - even if a fraction of it never dies, large majority of them will, and large majority of vastly larger number means vastly higher turnover overall.

Only an absolute limit on expanding areas could stop this - and leaving aside future boats and larger bridges, even oceans don't work, for goblin performers, mercenaries and scholars will still expand goblins to major sites willing to accept them, and such sites tend towards having majority of goblin population due their massively greater numbers leading to massive immigration. And oh yeah, visitors bring culture, bringing me to

3rd: The reason us humans pride ourselves over amoeba in petri dishes is less about our ability to fuck each other and more about our culture and intelligence. And goblins do have high-order intelligence. Due their numbers, they're likely the first to tame all beasts of the world that they can.

(Culture, not so much - outside of humans, all civs are cookie cutter + ruler influences.)

Furthermore, checking some goblins in 3k year worldgen I have, the 3k old ones are quite active, constantly travelling between sites and writing books. This also allows them to hone their skills in scholarly pursuit - for another example, an elf may be legendary geographer, but non-necromancer human not so much due the lack of time.

In a stagnant population, one would fear the stagnation of ideas - but as established in 2, there isn't a stagnant population.

And with larger population of scholars and more wars comes more technological development.
If there is ever-improving technology, largest body of researchers would benefit the most, establishing goblin supremacy.
If there is technological cap, largest body of researchers would reach it first - still having goblins supreme through sheer numbers alone.

Now, if kobolds could steal ideas....with one civ it'd still leave them playing catch-up, as the reasons they fell behind would still apply. With multiple civs? Whoa, they could get all the technological development of other races.
(Also, it would be awesome. Wars over copyright, anyone?)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 05:22:03 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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Melting Sky

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Re: Evolution Chart
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2016, 06:25:09 am »

Elves are immortal, they are friends with the animals, they don't leave much in the way of a trail, they move quickly, they have an amazing sense of smell, godlike memory, linguistic ability and disease resistance. They are cursed with the absolutely worst weapons and armor in the game since they must be made of wood. They are smaller than humans. They have poor vision in the dark.

Humans are large, they have access to excellent native weapons. They can wield big weapons like great axes etc. They are mortal but this also means they can become necromancers. They can make metal weapons. They have a mediocre sense of smell and poor vision in the dark. They are short lived.

Goblins are immortal, they have access to excellent native weapons. They need not eat or drink. They are smaller than humans. They have poor creativity, empathy and intuition. They have amazing memory. They have better than average endurance and will power and a better sense of smell than a human but not as good as an elf. They have limited low light vision.

Dwarves are the same size as goblins and elves. They can go into martial trances. They have god tier vision in the dark. Their agility is poor. They have slightly above average focus and spatial sense. They can make steel. They have mediocre native weapons. They have a human level sense of smell. They have huge livers and can suffer from cave adaption. They are longer lived and more moral than humans.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 06:29:14 am by Melting Sky »
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