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Author Topic: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation  (Read 4555 times)

Ungweliante

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Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« on: July 10, 2016, 09:08:56 am »

Please don't make this a mechanic, that makes the game into a repetitive and tedious micromanagement hell.

So far, I've managed to avoid this by having every single dwarf in the fortress belong to militia squads and wear metal armor. Now that armor degradation is in, I'm pretty worried that it becomes much like with clothes. They pile up, can't be sold fast enough, and need gimmicks like drawbridge -annihilators to get rid off. In great amounts they lower the FPS significantly, which is the #1 reason why fortresses get abandoned.

There's no option to repair anything - which is both unrealistic as well as breaks the suspension of disbelief. Realistically items degrading would mean a real representation of damage, such as tears, chips and so on - to various parts of the item in question, much like with the dwarf injury system. Tears can be sewn shut, holes can be patched - and certainly were, in medieval times.

Degradation also shouldn't break the physical law of the conservation of energy: when you have a broken sword, the blade is still on the floor - and a blacksmith can repair it by reforging. A piece of armor with a puncture hole still has the same amount of material: it's just bent to the direction of the applied energy.

Finally, I'll leave this here: http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/32918-mythbusters-slicing-a-sword-video.htm
Its a test done by Mythbusters about what happens, when you try to cut a sword in half with another sword.

Thank you for reading, and sorry for the negative tone of the post.
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Splint

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2016, 10:14:33 am »

I think it would be better to say that at the very least, armor and weapon degradation should have been left out until some form of repair mechanic was also available - be it on order from the player, or an automated action idle dwarves undertake, perhaps at a designated zone where materials are set aside for people to fix their armor, tools, etc.

Most other items degrade over the course of years, if they degrade at all, with the exception of clothing soldiers wear in combat - cotton and silk don't hold up so well to claws and swords.

Vattic

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2016, 06:59:07 pm »

It's not lossless, but you'll likely be able to melt down damaged metal equipment and reforge. I'm all for more detailed repairs; Roughly straightening your own bent sword over your knee in combat would be useful and realistic. I have images of a soldier telling us where both he and his armour got their scars. Hopefully we'll be able to automate the replacement of equipment with the new standing orders.

Found it a bit disappointing the Mythbusters folk used hardened cast steel swords when modern forged swords would have been closer to the originals. They seemed to have the swords more firmly fixed than a human would be capable of potentially leading to unrealistic stresses. From what I gather their conclusion that a swords is unlikely to cut another cleanly in two is reasonable. It's also worth noting that both were identical which isn't usually the case in DF with the dwarven monopoly on steel among other things. Crusaders for example reported that their steel swords would more readily shatter than their Arab enemy's steel swords which would bend (lots of debate over the secret of their steel).

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Skuggen

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2016, 12:21:04 am »

Maybe have this sort of thing something that can be toggled at worldgen?
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Admiral Obvious

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2016, 01:25:21 am »

As one who recently pushed to see this kind of change added, I'm hesitant to agree with the OP on this one.

In large cases, you can melt down damaged stuff, and reforge whatever you need. Admittedly at a loss, but that was somewhat the point. I think it would be better to see the melting mechanics fixed (exploits, and all). Note, that "repairing" a weapon would create a structural failing in the weapon, or armor, no matter how well it was done, which as stated above, and before, would be neat to see.
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Skuggen

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2016, 04:15:42 am »

It's not just about the materials/resources, though; I don't play very large forts (usually a cap of 60-100), but the amount of worn clothing will tend to rise very quickly after a while, so you'd need a sizeable workforce dedicated to deal with it without using slightly hacky ways around it (dfhack, atom smashers/magma/etc).

I don't mind using those methods myself, but it really shouldn't be a requirement.
If there was an entity tag to determine if armor should degrade, then turning it off before generating the world seems like it should be fairly simple.
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Ungweliante

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2016, 04:27:22 am »

Regarding melting: you definitely wouldn't need to melt the whole set of armour to repair it. And it wouldn't result in structural flaws, either.

For example, here's a great schematic of plate mail: http://s136.photobucket.com/user/davehyena/media/ArmourDraw/armordia.jpg.html ; and of the armour used by Henry VIII: http://images2.bridgemanart.com/cgi-bin/bridgemanImage.cgi/400wm.AMR.1967240.7055475/424512.jpg . As you can see, it's very piecemeal - even larger sections were composed of smaller, intelocking parts. Only the damaged pieces would need to be melted and remade.

Chainmail, on the other hand, is made of rings ( http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tNe0Dtk3uH8/UjRzkHzRBoI/AAAAAAAAGuk/R5d6wJtAlbg/s1600/Screenshot_1.png ; https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a9/11/75/a911751f34743b430d51916c2e6fec26.jpg ). Melting down or just replacing the few damaged rings would be a relatively trivial thing to do.

Edit: The same piecemeal making was true for other armour types also, e.g. lamellar, scale, splint, banded, brigandine, etc. All of them could be made equally from leather, various metals or both.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 07:33:11 am by Ungweliante »
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DeCervantes

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2016, 08:04:21 am »


Chainmail, on the other hand, is made of rings ( http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tNe0Dtk3uH8/UjRzkHzRBoI/AAAAAAAAGuk/R5d6wJtAlbg/s1600/Screenshot_1.png ; https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a9/11/75/a911751f34743b430d51916c2e6fec26.jpg ). Melting down or just replacing the few damaged rings would be a relatively trivial thing to do.


One of the reasons, as far as my amateurish knowledge goes, why mail was widely used, is that it was relatively easy to forge and repair.
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Ungweliante

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2016, 10:50:45 am »

Regarding clothes repair, I'll leave this here: http://www.rewardrobe.eu/wardrobe-care/slow-care-invisible-and-visible-mending-the-art-of-patching/

In the hands of a master, it's nothing short of amazing what can be done. Holes can be mended so well, that the result is unrecognisable from the original. Patchwork, when needed or wanted, can be done so that the result is arguably better than the original. Embroidery can be added, as well as expensive materials.

PS. I also agree with Skuggen: a simple trigger for yes / no degradation at worldgen would be super. To add to DeCervantes's point, the modular design in armor also served to make it possible to get into, as well as move. Joints bend, straight plates don't.

Edit: grammar & PS.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 11:26:51 am by Ungweliante »
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Skuggen

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 06:42:26 am »

Another possibility might be to have degradation as a result of combat separate; You could assume a soldier takes care of regular maintenance of his armor so it doesn't degrade, but a blow from a warhammer could still damage it.
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Migrant

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Re: Regarding armor / weapon / clothes / item degradation
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 07:43:15 am »

Quote
Another possibility might be to have degradation as a result of combat separate
The wiki says armor doesn't degrade over time unless you store i in a refuse stockpile but it gets damaged from combat. An opt-in for wear might be waranted but it will get better once repairing is implemented.
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