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Author Topic: Sequitur Naming  (Read 625 times)

Killitwithfire

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Sequitur Naming
« on: April 18, 2016, 11:53:49 am »

Basically, instead of having names be fully random, have them be picked from a list of names that actually make sense in context. For example, only have "echoes" available as part of a naming scheme if it's an area that could conceivably have good acoustics (caves would be an option, open meadows would not) or if it's the name of someone born in that region.

This would be especially applicable in the area of granting titles... why do we have elephants that are named after abbeys for slaughtering a dozen dwarves again?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Sequitur Naming
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2016, 12:58:16 pm »

This is already done to a limited extent, although it certainly could be done to a greater one. 

In the raws, under "entity_default.txt", you'll see the likes of the following:
[SELECT_SYMBOL:REMAINING:EARTH]
[CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:DOMESTIC]

Words are put into categories of concepts they are associated with.  These token from the dwarven entity raws mean that "domestic" words (words associated with familial ties) are removed, and words associated with the earth are more common when naming dwarven constructions, such as tunnels. (This means that names like "The bridge of stones" are more common than most names, while "The sister of fathers" should not occur.)

The association of words is controlled in the "language_SYM.txt" file.



If Toady does read this, though, I'd like to request some further work on how language is constructed. Currently, there is no morphology of words for tense.  I'd really like to see some sort of rules set up so that pluralization, or verb tense can be raw-edited.  That is, have dwarves pluralize a word by adding "en" onto the back of the word, or make it past-tense by adding "òm"

Additional bonus points would be raw-edited grammar rules, such as word order. (That is, setting the order of words to adjective-noun-adverb-verb or verb-adverb-noun-adjective or something mixed between. I.E. "The quick brown fox nimbly jumped over the lazy dog" versus a language where you say "dog lazy jumped nimbly fox quick brown.")
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Killitwithfire

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Re: Sequitur Naming
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2016, 01:20:19 pm »

Well, yeah, but we still end up with nonsensical or outright ironic names for things... locations especially, even more so if the locations happen to be lairs. Honestly, it's kinda tedious to try to navigate a list of names that have no clear connection to the location they describe, even with the filtering option.
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Knight Otu

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Re: Sequitur Naming
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2016, 01:26:02 pm »

Some relevant dev items/quotes:

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html
Quote
LANGUAGE ARC: The in-game languages need a better framework, as many simple name formulations are impossible in the current system, and it wouldn't hurt to add a basic grammar and phonetics at this time as well. In addition, paper, engraved writing, books, poems, songs, etc. could all be explored in the different game modes in various ways. Related to Core97, Core98, Core99 and Core100.
...
Core97, IMPROVED PHRASE STORAGE, (Future): The current system of storing names is not very extendable, so it needs to be altered to support later changes.
Core98, BASIC GRAMMAR, (Future): The abstract phrases can be realized by each of the in-game languages in vastly different ways, and a framework for this needs to be realized in the raw files. Requires Core97.
...
Bloat348, LINGUISTICS, (Future): Aside from having translations for basic words and a displayed written language, civ languages could also have a syntax, phonetic information, etc.
Quote from: Toady One
Quote from: Clownmite
We all love the nonsensical epithets that are generated for notable figures, but is there a chance of getting some more sensible ones intermingled in soon, such as "X the Swordsman", "X the Rock", "X the Wise", or "X One-eye" based on equipment, encounters, or physical/mental characteristics? I can imagine that, for instance, it would make it a little more engaging and easier to remember a journey to kill Bax the Pillager instead of Bax Cryptsquarreled the Foresty Glaive of Wandering

        I know a more intensive linguistics rewrite is a later power goal, but I think especially with the world being activated it would make it a little easier to keep track of the hundreds of historical guys running around if some of them had slightly more "familiar" names / epithets.
Quote from: Sergarr
When will places have names related to their particular features (naming a forest full of apple trees the Forest of Apple Trees, for example)?
It'll probably all have to wait for the language rewrite, since the current name storage is very restrictive.  I can only refer to things in one specific way with a list of words that aren't linked tightly enough to the raws to refer to them directly as things stand.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 01:31:20 pm by Knight Otu »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Sequitur Naming
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2016, 03:10:07 pm »

Well, here's to hoping he gets around to Language Arc sooner rather than later.  It seems like, especially with greater and greater procedural content being added, it would have a tremendous payout in terms of ratio of work in to verisimilitude out.

He could probably make a method of language creation that allows for the dumping of a dictionary into the game, while spitting out a set of in-game dictionaries for every race.  That would reduce the dictionary end of the workload. 
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
Class Warfare