Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Melting Sky]

A bit off-topic, but how do swords (native and foreign), spears, axes and whips fit into this spectrum?

As others have mentioned different weapons are good for different applications. As far as melee weapons that can be used by dwarves go the most notable ones are pick and morning star with an honorable mention for battle axes. Picks are probably the all around best overall weapon a dwarf can use. They have a high velocity multiplier. They are quite heavy. They have a small contact area and deep penetration. They are edged and have a large enough surface area to be pretty decent even for hacking off limbs etc. They also only have a single attack style which is a highly devastating strike so dwarves will not waste time trying to pommel bash their foes ineffectively such as with battle axes. Unlike axes they can still cause serious injury even through armor made of a better material than the pick is.

Morning stars are a type of mace and use the mace wielding skill. Despite being technically edged weapons their utility is that of a blunt trauma weapon. They are superior to whips, hammers and maces and will utterly destroy any organic creature with bones that is capable of feeling pain regardless what armor it is wearing.

Swords are rather mediocre weapons with the short sword being particularly sub-par. They are somewhat versatile but are inferior to picks and battle axes. Long swords are a considerable upgrade due to being much heavier but still are no where near as good as picks which are both versatile and devastating.

Spears are the internal organ pokers of DF. They are solid against large organic creatures that are too big for lesser stabbing weapons to reach their internal organs. Overall they aren't particularly stand out weapons but they are definitely better than short swords in that they are at least good at one job.

Battle axes are the head removing and torso bisecting weapon of choice for dwarves. They need to be made of good materials since they will be completely useless for causing injuries through armor made of equal or superior materials but if you need to take out a bronze colossus or large husk then a good steel or candy axe will probably do the job better than even a pick.

[Spinning Fly]

So basically you'd only ever need 5 types of weapon:

Main 3 are crossbows for ranged attacks, picks as general purpose melee weapons and morningstars vs armor (replace with whip or hammer if not available).

Then you can use axes vs inorganic FB/titans and spears vs fleshy FB/titans.

[fearlesslittletoaster]

So, since I haven't seen it earlier in the thread, I will just put a bit of info out on the things that impact marksdwarf effectiveness. First off, there are three primary things that impact the effectiveness of a mele dwarf:

1. Skills such as weapon proficiency, dodger, shield user etc. Probably the most important for overall performance.

2. Basic attributes, such as strength, toughness, etc.

3. Weapons and armor, both quality and materials. Better gear significantly increases surviveability and effectiveness.

In terms of application mele dwarves are extremely simple. They path to the nearest enemy and get stuck in until somebody is dead. This means they are easy to use well since there is pretty much only one way to use them.

Now, in contrast using marksdwarves is a hell of a lot more complex. First off, there are additional factors that impact their battlefield effects. First off, the stuff that is the same:

1. Basic skills matter a LOT. However training them is harder since to raise marksdwarf skill consumes ammo and requires archery ranges which dwarves need to be carefully managed to use frequently.

2. Base attributes still help, though they matter less.

3. Crossbow quality. This makes bolts much more likely to hit. However it does NOT control the damage they do.

4. Bolt quality and material. This determines a bolt's effects on target. Bone and wood bolts, even masterwork, are a lot like nerf darts much of the time (enough of them are still quite dangerous though). Masterwork steel on the other hand will frequently penetrate and cause extensive internal injury.

5. Pathing to the target. Your marksdwarves dream of melee glory, as all Dwarves should. Don't give them the change or they will likely take advantage of it. Note that training your marksdwarves into legendary hammerdwarves then giving them copper crossbows and shields can still produce hilarious results though.

6. Visibility. Your dwarves have to be able to see the target. Fortifications can significantly complicate this. Cover and concealment (like bushes) may even matter, !!SCIENCE!! needs to be done there by somebody with more time than me. Best practice is to make hostiles advance over a paved lot just to be sure. Also this prevents spontaneous tree growth which most assuredly DOES screw up your engagement area.   

If you can get all the above elements right, which is something I specialize in, marksdwarves are absolutely devastating. Legendary marksdwarves firing masterwork steel bolts routinely headshot goblins and forgotten beasts; watching a 80 goblin siege advance on a properly set up archery tower is like watching a movie of a World War I infantry assault. On the other hand getting everything right is hard and will never bee 100% reliable so have mele as a backup for when Murphy has his say in things.   

[Bwint]

Thank you for this summary! I've been trying to get to the point you seem to be at, and this helps. I do have a couple questions:
1. I've been trying to use Qrox's archery range, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150323.msg6189710#msg6189710 and have been troubleshooting it so it hasn't mass-produced legendaries yet. Does anyone have experience with this range? Is it worth the trouble?

4. Bolt quality and material. This determines a bolt's effects on target. Bone and wood bolts, even masterwork, are a lot like nerf darts much of the time (enough of them are still quite dangerous though). Masterwork steel on the other hand will frequently penetrate and cause extensive internal injury.

I usually hear that silver is preferable to steel. Can you elaborate? When would you want steel over silver, or is it always better?

If you can get all the above elements right, which is something I specialize in, marksdwarves are absolutely devastating. Legendary marksdwarves firing masterwork steel bolts routinely headshot goblins and forgotten beasts; watching a 80 goblin siege advance on a properly set up archery tower is like watching a movie of a World War I infantry assault. On the other hand getting everything right is hard and will never bee 100% reliable so have mele as a backup for when Murphy has his say in things.   

Very inspirational! Like I said, I've been hoping to get to this point, and your testimony gives me the patience to carry on.

[Niddhoger]

Due to the weight factor in helping bolts penetrate armor... they are all roughly equal.  The ones with poor edge qualities tend to have higher weight (copper/steel), so it just about evens out.  If youhave the steel to spare, use it for bolts.  If you are drowning in silver (galena, galena, more galena!) then might as well.  However, if you have copper on your embark, then just copper bolts will sufice.

About spears... any mature fort really needs at least one spear squad on hand.  You really can't dismiss their potential for killing large mega-beasts.  Behemoths tend to have limbs too big to be easily sliced off with swords and/or too many limbs to bother hacking away.  However, even a Hydra only has one heart.  A sword, pick, nor warhammer will be able to properly pierce that deep into the beasty.  A good spear thrust could end the battle immediately when limbs are too big to be severed easily.

It doesn't always go right for the heart, but that isn't a huge problem; I remember one titan battle where the damn thing wound up with a spear through each lung.  No dwarves were injured in that fight.

Also, war-hammers are best as anti-armor weapons.  Get a heavy hammer (silver) combined with the small contact area of the weapon and it'll smash skulls through helmets.  I've also see hammerdorfs (not lord, maybe 7-8 in skill?) kill a forgotten beast in seconds.  I think the first hit smashed a foot and the second smashed a skull. 

As for general all-purpose weapons? I'd just use axes.  They start shearing limbs faster than swords ever could, are heavier than swords (for cases of dealing damage through armor), and can be trained in the barracks unlike picks.  Sure, picks are nice, but not all of us want to carve out huge ugly holes while drowning in stone to level up 100 "picklords"

Also, crossbows are definitely great for softening up ranks.  But yeah... I'll confess to primarily uses them for Kea Kontrol. 

[fearlesslittletoaster]

Thank you for this summary! I've been trying to get to the point you seem to be at, and this helps. I do have a couple questions:
1. I've been trying to use Qrox's archery range, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150323.msg6189710#msg6189710 and have been troubleshooting it so it hasn't mass-produced legendaries yet. Does anyone have experience with this range? Is it worth the trouble?

I never read that, so I have no idea  I use a conventional range and scheduling, so it probably is not as effective as that... I will read and maybe test it myself when I get some time.

4. Bolt quality and material. This determines a bolt's effects on target. Bone and wood bolts, even masterwork, are a lot like nerf darts much of the time (enough of them are still quite dangerous though). Masterwork steel on the other hand will frequently penetrate and cause extensive internal injury.

I usually hear that silver is preferable to steel. Can you elaborate? When would you want steel over silver, or is it always better?

Erm. Haven't read science on bolts in years... refer to the wiki maybe? I think I just started using steel forever ago and never stopped. I will use silver, copper, bronze, or iron if steel is not practical, and they are all effective.

[RocheLimit]

...and can be trained in the barracks unlike picks.  Sure, picks are nice, but not all of us want to carve out huge ugly holes while drowning in stone to level up 100 "picklords"

Whoever said you cannot barracks-train pick lords?  I've got a squad that has done nothing but train their picks for decades, and fought in just about every siege that has come to my fort.  The original commander actually just died of old age, with 180+ kills accredited to him and his artifact steel pick Lustrouscommon the Razor of Rock.

Just set them up like any other squad and watch them go.