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Author Topic: It's Fun to Lose  (Read 1736 times)

Kingfish880

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It's Fun to Lose
« on: October 25, 2015, 01:24:58 pm »



I've been playing Dwarf Fortress on and off for about two years now. Prior to my last fortress, I never had a very -solid- playthrough. There were always massive problems and it usually boiled down to not fully understanding game mechanics. Not properly equipping my military, running out of food (the whole "don't cook seeds" thing took me forever to figure out), or just becoming unhappy with how my fortress was built. But I always had fun. Well, the other day, everything finally clicked. I had a smooth running, well protected fortress with about 140 some odd dwarves. I finally had a decent military made up entirely of Spearmasters and Axelords (who'd been busily naming everything they owned), and the Goblin Sieges, Forgotten Beasts, and what have you really weren't posing a threat at all. I definitely had some FPS issues as the game bogged down to about 20 FPS, but I sorta just suffered through it. It was then that I realized I had ONE Spearmaster who'd yet to pick up an Adamantine spear. He was still rocking his Iron one. I needed to make another. So I scrolled the 100+ Z levels to the magma sea, picked out a section of a vein I'd yet to tap, and......

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 But the weird thing about all of this?

I was laughing. Out loud. Thoroughly and completely enjoying myself. I really thought I'd be at least a little upset, but I wasn't at all. I know every time you embark, the clock starts ticking toward total destruction, so I always go into a game with that mindset. It's part of the game. But I'd just never lost a good Fortress so quickly and gloriously before. And I haven't had that much fun LOSING at anything in my life.

This game isn't for everyone. It's one of those Anti-Games that never once holds your hand or gives you a cookie for a job well done. If anything, it cuts off said hand, and send the severed part sailing off in an arc while stealing your cookie. Mistakes are punished brutally and complete and total failure is always just a "whoops" moment away. But I absolutely love it. The replay value, the mechanics, the brutality, the learning curve, all of it makes this game fantastic. (Hell I enjoyed it enough that I felt the urge to finally make a username and make a post on this forum I stalk regularly). Losing really IS fun, and now if ya'll will excuse me, I have another Fortress to go lose.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 08:14:47 pm »

It's like building sand castles on the tide and trying to keep everything running before the ocean consumes your Fortress (and then you drown to death too because this is DF). There is something wonderful about the permanence and consequences of all your actions, how even the smallest of things - a butterfly for example, trapped in a door lock, could spell the end of all your efforts.
Everything you do is consigned to destruction, and so that is why we must do even greater. From the moment I learned how to keep a Fortress alive until inevitable death I've found DF the definitive sandbox (on the ocean). Long it's been in my view that DF is about aiming high and digging deep, with the unspoken rule being accept what all farmers in adventurer towns will tell you - "It is inevitable."

The first memorable loss for me has to be when I embarked on some desert mesa-scape and fumbled around trying to figure out what hives were, how to use kennels and where all the water was going and why some Dwarves equally died of thirst and others drowned. Figuring the rest were doomed, the Fortress was abandoned to save the survivors.
The second memorable loss is one of my fondest losses. It was a desert with a river running through half the region, and my Dwarves were masters of it all. The great giant badgers were a fearsome menace, but were kept in check with war dogs. The giant badgers that once ravaged my Dwarves' lands and killed them limb from limb were being hunted by fearsome veterans of the badger wars - and not all would ever return from any one hunt.
Underground the industrious Dwarves grew vast stores of produce and alcohol, with rooms for all and even plans to produce an even deeper sub-Fortress complex with a 30zlvl walkway, whilst aboveground a Colosseum was constructed for reverence, and a grand workshop area built on the southern side to develop the Fortress economy. Everything was going grand! Until one fated hunt, where the giant badgers did not flee from the dogs but instead attacked head on. Though the badgers were fought off, they took many Dwarves down with them and even more dogs. The hunts ceased, and the Fortress relied more on traps. Then one accidental mass-release of honey badgers within the Colosseum resulted in the deaths of several craftsdwarves before the war dogs and soldiers managed to scare them off. Things started looking bad, but to me everything was going brilliantly. The Fortress was wealthy and continually expanding, and tombs given to honour the fallen.
When winter came the river froze over and the badgers roamed over the river into safe Dwarven land. More Dwarves and dogs were lost, the Dwarves were so afflicted that they did not complete the fortifications in the workshops in time. The Dwarves held on against the frozen river and the badger onslaught until the goblins arrived. I had never seen goblins before, and it really was the first time I gathered what kind of game DF was. My Dwarves were hunters, not soldiers; their weapons were of bone and ivory, the goblins carried metal. I was astounded by how the Dwarves I had seen flawlessly emerge from victory were cut down by these conquistadors, even the myriad army of dogs did not suffice to much. The captain himself, bone helm, warhammer held high atop gargantuan piles of greater beasts - even he was no match for the speargoblin captain. Because the workshop fortifications were incomplete the entire Fortress was compromised and the goblins had free reign. The only survivor was a lone miner who escaped the carnage underground; he sealed himself off from the rest of the Fort but was eventually caught trying to secure the food stocks by the goblins. He surprised the goblin captain and cut his arm before being beset upon by so many spears - the Fortress crumbled to its end. I had learned how powerful metal was.

Under the eclipse of this ruined Fortress I had learned that losing is Fun.

Chief10

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 09:30:04 pm »

Wow I've never actually seen the lose screen before. I've always "succumbed to the invasion" with 1 or 2 dwarves still alive.
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omega_dwarf

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 12:35:31 am »

It has been a very long time since I've lost. 0.34 made it fun and easy; in 2014, if you lose, it's because you tried to. The primary causes have disappeared. I actually want tantrum spirals back...they were so uniquely DF and provided such a challenge to pull the fort out of its nosedive...now the dwarves live in holes and their numbers just dwindle...I'm baffled why I've never seen anyone depressed, even with death all around them in terrible biomes eating raw plump helmets with cheap booze on the floor, and sleeping in shifts on too few beds in communal dormitories. Is it just me and the level of experience that I happened to reach, or are psychological issues not a problem in DF2014 under North Korean conditions? Plus there aren't any invaders, so you really have to go out of your way and crack open the clowncar to get any fun. (And I'm not really good enough with military for that.) I guess I really just need to embark next to a tower next time, but I'm waiting until DF2015 to start the next fort. Got a decent one going rn.

Anyway, yeah, losing was/is really, really fun! I'm glad that there's celebration of that, every now and then, and I don't mean at all to crash the party. But DF2014 has taken some of that away, for me at least. I guess everything has always been 100% avoidable, but it's easier in some ways now, don't you think? Or maybe I've just developed a conscience when it comes to killing dwarves :P

@Loud Whispers, any advice about returning to a place of reasonable challenge after learning how to avoid death?

darkflagrance

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 02:51:49 am »

One problem with DF is that once you're really good at the game, it's nearly all sandbox with no chance of defeat. You can see examples of people doing crazy stuff like colonizing the bottom of the world in other threads.

One solution to the problem of easiness is to use mods to add difficulty in the form of extra monsters or invaders (such as the mod in my signature). You may also need to houserule some things like not sealing off the fortress. Also, engaging in massive scale engineering megaprojects such as orbital magma cannons cast from obsidian, draining the ocean, or colonizing biomes that turn corpses into zombies can be a source of challenge and things going wrong spectacularly.
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omega_dwarf

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 09:33:30 am »

Yeah, I've tried many of those things. I've always wanted to dig very deep and build a fortress there, but never really had the capability. (FPS death or boredom before there's enough dwarfpower to create a large military and still keep all the normal construction going.) I've played aboveground-only forts with open quarries, aboveground farmland, all that jazz. Almost all of my recent embarks have been evil biomes.

The thing with house rules is that they feel quite artificial; you know your dwarves have the capability to stop what's going on, but you force them not to. Currently doing doors-only (but apparently husks can't break those anyway), no-weapon-trap-hallway, no-atom-smashers, no-amenities (people have begun to cry a little), plus megaproject with only 19 dwarves (colonizing the cloud-prone surface with stone block buildings, defenses (including an in-progress no-impulse-ramp machine gun), and maybe a controlled husk factory.) It's turning out well enough, but for the lack of invaders and migrants. It is oceanside, and one of my plans has been to drain it, build a tower in it, and flood the surrounding seabed again. (Only 1 tile deep though, so shouldn't be too hard.) It's the closest to losing I've come in a while - fingers crossed! But I have admittedly been abusing pathfinding, door airlocks, etc. Oh, and it's on an island solely (and densely) inhabited by goblins, though I haven't seen them yet (probably because of population.)

I've seriously considered the Fortress Defense Mod before...perhaps it's nearing time to give it a shot. But probably only if DF2015 becomes DF2016, because I'm really looking forward to that release and will want to play vanilla for a while.

Kneenibble

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 11:03:11 am »

God damnit, I love these stories.

It has been a very long time since I've lost. 0.34 made it fun and easy; in 2014, if you lose, it's because you tried to. The primary causes have disappeared. I actually want tantrum spirals back...they were so uniquely DF and provided such a challenge to pull the fort out of its nosedive...now the dwarves live in holes and their numbers just dwindle...I'm baffled why I've never seen anyone depressed, even with death all around them in terrible biomes eating raw plump helmets with cheap booze on the floor, and sleeping in shifts on too few beds in communal dormitories. Is it just me and the level of experience that I happened to reach, or are psychological issues not a problem in DF2014 under North Korean conditions? Plus there aren't any invaders, so you really have to go out of your way and crack open the clowncar to get any fun. (And I'm not really good enough with military for that.) I guess I really just need to embark next to a tower next time, but I'm waiting until DF2015 to start the next fort. Got a decent one going rn.

I'm perplexed by your comments.  I have a thriving 13-year fort in the throes of a tantrum spiral right now due to the unhappy thoughts from hauling goblin and troll corpses to the magma crematory.  Folks are going nuts all over the place, starting fights, breaking workshops, stumbling obliviously, or sunk in depression: in spite of thousands of masterful roasts, twelve kinds of booze, and very valuable furniture and architecture everywhere.
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Chief10

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 01:07:42 am »

God damnit, I love these stories.

It has been a very long time since I've lost. 0.34 made it fun and easy; in 2014, if you lose, it's because you tried to. The primary causes have disappeared. I actually want tantrum spirals back...they were so uniquely DF and provided such a challenge to pull the fort out of its nosedive...now the dwarves live in holes and their numbers just dwindle...I'm baffled why I've never seen anyone depressed, even with death all around them in terrible biomes eating raw plump helmets with cheap booze on the floor, and sleeping in shifts on too few beds in communal dormitories. Is it just me and the level of experience that I happened to reach, or are psychological issues not a problem in DF2014 under North Korean conditions? Plus there aren't any invaders, so you really have to go out of your way and crack open the clowncar to get any fun. (And I'm not really good enough with military for that.) I guess I really just need to embark next to a tower next time, but I'm waiting until DF2015 to start the next fort. Got a decent one going rn.

I'm perplexed by your comments.  I have a thriving 13-year fort in the throes of a tantrum spiral right now due to the unhappy thoughts from hauling goblin and troll corpses to the magma crematory.  Folks are going nuts all over the place, starting fights, breaking workshops, stumbling obliviously, or sunk in depression: in spite of thousands of masterful roasts, twelve kinds of booze, and very valuable furniture and architecture everywhere.

I am playing a v34 fort right now, and I have to say, tantrums really were harder to deal with back in the day. I think the main difference is that it used to be possible to succumb to a tantrum spiral in the space of a season, while in the current version it takes much longer.
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omega_dwarf

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Re: It's Fun to Lose
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2015, 11:16:25 am »

God damnit, I love these stories.

It has been a very long time since I've lost. 0.34 made it fun and easy; in 2014, if you lose, it's because you tried to. The primary causes have disappeared. I actually want tantrum spirals back...they were so uniquely DF and provided such a challenge to pull the fort out of its nosedive...now the dwarves live in holes and their numbers just dwindle...I'm baffled why I've never seen anyone depressed, even with death all around them in terrible biomes eating raw plump helmets with cheap booze on the floor, and sleeping in shifts on too few beds in communal dormitories. Is it just me and the level of experience that I happened to reach, or are psychological issues not a problem in DF2014 under North Korean conditions? Plus there aren't any invaders, so you really have to go out of your way and crack open the clowncar to get any fun. (And I'm not really good enough with military for that.) I guess I really just need to embark next to a tower next time, but I'm waiting until DF2015 to start the next fort. Got a decent one going rn.

I'm perplexed by your comments.  I have a thriving 13-year fort in the throes of a tantrum spiral right now due to the unhappy thoughts from hauling goblin and troll corpses to the magma crematory.  Folks are going nuts all over the place, starting fights, breaking workshops, stumbling obliviously, or sunk in depression: in spite of thousands of masterful roasts, twelve kinds of booze, and very valuable furniture and architecture everywhere.

Ah, well, I haven't had any invaders (but numerous deaths and ghosts!) so apparently North Korea on its own doesn't upset dwarves very much. It's good to know there's hope, though!