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Author Topic: Probably loyalty cascade but why?  (Read 3626 times)

DonDiablo

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Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« on: June 22, 2015, 05:10:07 am »

Greetings Masterminds,

I just can't figure out how my fort got into the self destructive state it is in now. Everything seemed alright except for a baron that went stark raving mad ( I don't blaim him i do agree my manager had a better dining room ) and a vampire somewhere amongst my bearded alcoholics.

I also just had a siege of Hammerman ( I locked them up for now and killed 2 of them )

Soon after everything was cleared up, my dwarfs start killing each other when I look in the reports I see : a dwarf yells: Armok, I am sorry but I have to kill this bearded sod. and so on.

Before I know it my whole fortress is into a huge fist fight and well we all know where the FUN goes.

I am aware of what a loyalty cascade is and I am 100% sure I never attacked a caravan, I only bought animals/mounts from the elves/humans in a legit way. The only thing I can recall is I once had a monster visiting me which transformed into a dwarf when it started raining, but my military was not quick enough to kill it and it disapeared of the edge of my land. And it was about 2 years before this cascade began.

It would be great to know where this is coming from to prevent it in the future.
I have the save file here :http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=10943 It will start after approximatly 3 minutes. (keep an eye on the R menu)
It is on the Masterwork mod 34.11

ANY suggestions are welcome, Cheers!
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Meph

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2015, 05:17:06 am »

It has nothing to do with an event 2 years ago.

Quote
Soon after everything was cleared up, my dwarfs start killing each other when I look in the reports I see : a dwarf yells: Armok, I am sorry but I have to kill this bearded sod. and so on.
Dwarves have battle-cries that fit their enemies. "Die greenskin skum" against goblins, "a thief, kill it" against kobolds, etc. Dwarf vs Dwarf is what you have been seeing. It is not the cause, just a bit of flavor text. Usually dwarves only attack other dwarves if they are undead or berserk, in which case the text fits.

I'm sure you can prevent the loyality cascade, if it starts ~3mins after your last save.
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DonDiablo

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 05:34:51 am »

Yea well that is indeed the start. After that they start killing each other.
I'm sure you can prevent the loyality cascade, if it starts ~3mins after your last save.

To be honest I have no idea how, on the wiki I could only find that I should separate the 2 parts in conflict but I have no idea why or who starts it.

If you have any suggestions let me know :)
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SabbyKat

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 05:50:23 am »

Yea well that is indeed the start. After that they start killing each other.
I'm sure you can prevent the loyality cascade, if it starts ~3mins after your last save.

To be honest I have no idea how, on the wiki I could only find that I should separate the 2 parts in conflict but I have no idea why or who starts it.

If you have any suggestions let me know :)

Have diseases on? Skitzo's still cause loyalty cascades (even though it was supposedly fixed).

Did you attack/threaten your dwarven trader friends? (Any actual hostility-of-arms will cause a cascade if I recall, I.e. trying to kill them).

Any migrant wave happen recently before this, and if so, anything of 'note' in the combat log from those immigrants?

If none of the above, the only logical thing I can see, is you encountered A) a 'dust' of some sort on those invaders, or any artifact effect. hard to really say without the specific save.

If you can't figure it out, and are hell-bent to figure this out - pass along your save to me in PM, and I'll take a gander at it.
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DonDiablo

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 07:02:03 am »

Have diseases on? Skitzo's still cause loyalty cascades (even though it was supposedly fixed).

Did you attack/threaten your dwarven trader friends? (Any actual hostility-of-arms will cause a cascade if I recall, I.e. trying to kill them).

Any migrant wave happen recently before this, and if so, anything of 'note' in the combat log from those immigrants?

If none of the above, the only logical thing I can see, is you encountered A) a 'dust' of some sort on those invaders, or any artifact effect. hard to really say without the specific save.

If you can't figure it out, and are hell-bent to figure this out - pass along your save to me in PM, and I'll take a gander at it.

Thanks,
I have diseases off, together with pretty much all the bad things that masterwork brings (prefer the actual sieges as a challenge)
I never attacked a caravan not elven not dwarven not any trader as mentioned before the only dwarven thing i ever ordered to attack was that humanoid monster that (i believe) transformed into a dwarf, but Meph already confirmed that, that can not have been the result (to long ago)

My last wave... I am pretty sure it's not that neither since I have a low population cap I haven't had wave's in a while. The combat logs begin with : Dwarven child's running for their life's. I tried figuring out who starts the mayhem but it seems that every time I start the save there is another dwarf starting the fight. But it does happen every time around the same time (while I have no specific digging order or anything)

The last thing could be yes, I had no idea that was possible.
In my original post is a save if you want to check it out.

Anyway thanks for the help here, I am pretty curious what caused it but if it's going to be hard to recall than its no big deal.



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DonDiablo

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 08:36:00 am »

Another strange thing just occurred to me I was paying attention to the sleeping chambers for a while. And before the cascade starts (maybe not relevant to each other) I see a dwarven child killing another dwarven child ( it even said he took joy in slaughter ) when the witness reported the crime it said : Found a body drained in blood as if it was a vampire.
I sentence the kid via the justice system (I have a jail but he gets killed anyway) and a few moments later I see another kid entering the room of a sleeping child and a mechanic enters as well. Then the sleeping kid turns pale as if a vampire bit him.

Looks almost as if I have multiple vampire's or something I have been chasing the vampire for a while now but none of my dwarfs have any symptoms of being one :/

EDIT: Yep just confirmed it with 2 other cases, a kid sleeps not pale my marksdwarf walks in and the kid gets pale. Then i see in another room literally 10 seconds later a engineer entering in a room where a kid sleeps and the kid gets pale.

Looks like i got multiple vampire's but they don't have symptoms of it also it are different dwarfs who suck blood every time. Starting to think it might have to do with each other.( I have fear of the night off
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 09:13:50 am by DonDiablo »
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Meph

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2015, 12:14:10 pm »

Quote
they don't have symptoms of it
What symptons?
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DonDiablo

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2015, 01:28:20 pm »

Quote
they don't have symptoms of it
What symptons?

Got this from the wiki:

Firstly, there are the consequences of their age. Vampires tend to be high in multiple (4-5+) social, high in at least one military skill, and "great" or better in at least one domestic skill. The biggest indicator of a vampire in v0.34.11 is that they will almost always have more skills (10-15+ easily) at Novice or better than any of your other dwarves. If your new Great Hunter is also a Novice Milker, Shearer, Farmer, Tanner, Carpenter, Stonecrafter, Furnace Operator, Soap Maker, Fisherdwarf, Fish Cleaner, and Fish Dissector... they're almost certainly a vampire.

They also tend to have very long lists of group associations, on the order of dozens, far more than your normal dwarves. They have abnormally long lists of relations and often many, many children, but none of them are present in the fortress (in stark contrast to the spouses, children and siblings whom most dwarves will share their home with). If they are married to a dwarf that is not present in the fortress, this should be treated as especially strong evidence. Note, however, that lacking relatives within the fortress is not a good indicator of being a vampire.

Their personality can also be scrutinized for abnormalities. Their biographies may indicate that they "have the appearance of somebody who is (x) years old," a very good indicator of a vampire in cases where they have too many children or too many civilization associations to be that young. As vampires do not eat, sleep, or drink, they will never have recent thoughts about meals, drinks, beds, dining rooms, or chairs, leaving their thoughts especially bare and suspicious. In the case of vampires who have been in the fort for a while, a comment may be added to the effect that "s/he could really use a drink," "s/he has not had a drink in far, far too long," or "can't even remember the last time s/he had some." This is an indicator that they need blood. In any case, if alcohol is available, it makes an excellent distinguishing mark.

There are two "normal" ways to be absolutely sure a dwarf is a vampire. The first is to catch them in the act; the dwarf will be clearly marked for the duration of the attack (i.e. Urist McUrist, Vampire on the unit list, in red). A vampire does not mind if the player is currently "watching" or even following it. The second is to have a dwarf witness the event happening. This will permanently uncover their identities, but almost always results in a dead dwarf first. More arcane are indicators based on their physical abilities; vampires with injured guts do not vomit, vampires with injured lungs have no problem "breathing", and submerged vampires will not drown (evoking the concept of an olden witch test for finding vampirism). Technically being undead, animated corpses will not evoke cancellation spam when a vampire sees them. An easy (albeit, cheap) way of screening migrants is to send them through a hallway with a zombie on the other side of fortifications/windows in clear sight. Normal dwarves will run away from the horrible sight of a harmless zombie but vampire dwarves will walk right through.
Feeding is treated as a job by the game, and thus appears in the Job List with the text 'On Break' in cyan. It is possible that the genuine 'On Break' (teal) and the fake 'On Break' (cyan) occupy different positions in the Job List.

Looking at the deities that the dwarf believes in (in the relationships screen) can be quite helpful. As long as only "cursed" vampires immigrate (and not blood drinking ones), one of the deities of a vampire should have a "cursed the dwarf [untrue alias] . . ." Lacking this clause in their deities seems to be a clear sign that you do not have a vampire. This non-bugged way of checking a vampire is linked to the "cheap" bugged way of checking of vampires, which is described in the final paragraph.
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DonDiablo

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 01:46:07 pm »

Alright I gave up on the loyalty cascade, I even tried DF Hack now with "fix/loyaltycascade"  to see what would happen, it even says it fixed 1 dwarf but then after a few seconds they start anyway.(no matter how many times I kept fixing) I tried moving all my animals outside of the fort but that didn't do it either. Almost looks like some kind of bug.

Next thing I still don't know why a child murdered another child but I found out why I couldn't locate the vampire it was a Ghost, Dwarven, Baby....

Anyway I made him a slab and thats fixed.
Going to restart the fort just hope I won't encounter a way like this to go down next time ^^
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smakemupagus

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 10:23:44 pm »

I don't understand how it's a bug or loyalty cascade... it seems quite clear you have vampires?

(edit) Probably from the text i just don't quite understand what's going on because it sounds pretty unique, i'll check out the save over the weekend if i get a chance
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 10:48:31 pm by smakemupagus »
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Meph

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 08:52:35 am »

Smake: Vampires shouldnt cause loyality cascades.
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DonDiablo

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2015, 10:34:50 am »

I don't understand how it's a bug or loyalty cascade... it seems quite clear you have vampires?

(edit) Probably from the text i just don't quite understand what's going on because it sounds pretty unique, i'll check out the save over the weekend if i get a chance

Yes sorry I might have been a bit chaotic in the explanation. The summary is I am getting a what seems to be loyalty cascade without a reason or nothing I can recall. The cascade also seems to start from a random dwarf every time.

(forget the vampire thing, in this topic I think I got that all figured out it is still strange how the people got pale or how that child got murdered but I am certain now that the only vampire is that ghost baby)

Thanks for all the help tough guys
great mod!
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smakemupagus

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2015, 08:54:57 pm »

Smake: Vampires shouldnt cause loyality cascades.

Yep I agree.  Of course cascades shouldn't happen randomly either...  So my original thought was that it likely wasn't really a cascade -- but then I don't know what to make of the fact that fix/loyaltycascade reported that it fixed something. 

i imagine that vampires can cause rampant unhappyness and berzerks in a fort that wasn't too happy to begin with, which inexperienced players might mistake for loyalty cascade.  /shrug i dunno!  sounds like a pretty unusual situation here whatever it was.

Well, Good luck in your next fort, or in getting this one stabalized DonDiablo!

DonDiablo

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Re: Probably loyalty cascade but why?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 08:05:43 am »

Smake: Vampires shouldnt cause loyality cascades.

Yep I agree.  Of course cascades shouldn't happen randomly either...  So my original thought was that it likely wasn't really a cascade -- but then I don't know what to make of the fact that fix/loyaltycascade reported that it fixed something. 

i imagine that vampires can cause rampant unhappyness and berzerks in a fort that wasn't too happy to begin with, which inexperienced players might mistake for loyalty cascade.  /shrug i dunno!  sounds like a pretty unusual situation here whatever it was.

Well, Good luck in your next fort, or in getting this one stabalized DonDiablo!

Yea I understand, well I have been playing for a while now but new to MW. As you can see in the save the dwarfs are not fighting because they have gone berserk or tantrumming.

But thanks for all the help good luck!
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