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Author Topic: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up  (Read 34382 times)

Darkwind3

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #345 on: May 25, 2015, 10:57:26 am »

Both Ulm and Fomoria staled. What's up with that?

Condolences on Tjatse by the way, Niefelheim. I think I got a little lucky there. Not that I'm complaining! :D
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #346 on: May 25, 2015, 04:12:14 pm »

If no one posts for extension then stalls will happen. Once again does someone who is currently active in the game wants to help with admin duties.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #347 on: May 25, 2015, 11:08:33 pm »

Both Ulm and Fomoria staled. What's up with that?

Condolences on Tjatse by the way, Niefelheim. I think I got a little lucky there. Not that I'm complaining! :D
I can't think of a scenario where I win the game, so anything is fine at this point.

My early moves were... uninformed, to say the least.
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #348 on: May 26, 2015, 03:46:45 am »

I would be partial to advising some more aggression. IIRC you had 30+ niefel troops patrolling near my border turn after turn after turn. Those popsickles ain't cheap.

But it's a learning game, it takes a few matches to get a good Dominions groove going.
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Darkwind3

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #349 on: June 02, 2015, 06:40:36 pm »

Well, the turn was postponed for about a week and Ulm still staled. Fomoria is AI and Niefelheim will not win this war. Should we just call this in favor of Pangaea?
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #350 on: June 02, 2015, 07:00:25 pm »

I'm OK with this.  Let's give Ulm a bit to chime in case they intend to start playing.

I'll probably do a post-mortem in a bit, describe what I learned and how things went.  Even if I give up some info... whatever, I ain't winning this.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
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Darkwind3

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #351 on: June 03, 2015, 08:00:12 pm »

Hellheart has had a day to check in, but I'd suggest waiting another day before moving forward with ending the game. If there's no response by this time tomorrow, I'll PM Akhier the Dragon hearted to request he end the game.
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Darkwind3

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
« Reply #352 on: June 04, 2015, 07:31:37 pm »

PM sent. Though it's possible Hellheart still has his heart set on playing and just hasn't checked in in a while, I think it is probably safe to say the game is wrapping up. Good game, everyone! Probably. I wouldn't know. I did enjoy what time I got to spend and it was interesting seeing another player's take on EA Pan lategame.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
« Reply #353 on: June 04, 2015, 08:05:19 pm »

And the game is closed
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
« Reply #354 on: June 05, 2015, 03:10:34 pm »

So: In case anyone's still reading this, here's my thoughts:

First the big thing: I had no idea the kind of early game power I was sitting on with Niefelhiem.  Niefel giants are crazy.  This didn't really click until I sent them against Ermor and he tried to beat them with unsupported legionnaires.  Geez.  I should have been expanding with groups of nothing but 4 Niefel giants + a Gode.  I also didn't understand how to use magic, which makes sense because Neifelhiem is actually kinda weird with magic.  They have good path access on paper, probably one of the best factions for construction (Niefel Jarls can become light SCs at construction 4 and maybe a few alteration levels), and decent blood access.  They can also make ice fiends, which is a bit redundant but hey, its a good spammable unit and it doesn't directly cost gold so of course Niefelhiem is all over that.

That being said, Niefelhiem sucks at using their mages for combat support.  This is something I didn't understand for most of this game.  If you use Gynjas, you're paying for 3 paths you aren't using, and also for all the Gynja that randomed things that don't fit into your plan.  If you use Skratti or Niefel Jarls, your paths are great for self-buffing but mediocre at everything else, and also paying for a bunch of combat stats.  This pushes Niefelhiem into using thugs.  The other issue Niefelhiem has is that they just don't have enough dudes.  Jotuns aren't actually good fighters in the scheme of things, they have poor per-tile power and in the EA you don't get any national troops that can share a tile with them.  So you use the Niefel Giants, but then you're paying 175 gold EACH, and unfortunately for me my pretender design I went dormant for some reason and then didn't take the proper scales for gold.  So there just aren't enough dudes to be able to split armies effectively, further making you reliant on thugs with Gynja for research/construction/rituals.  Coming into this game, I didn't know how to use or make thugs.  I only learned about 6 turns before I tried to attack Pan, and at that point it was clear that no matter what i did, if Fomoria or Ulm decided to attack me in the back I was going to collapse.  Long story short, Ulm did, and the rest was history.

Lastly, I got unlucky with terrain this game (not that I was playing well enough to win either way).  I was pretty efficient about site searching for a new player, and I even got heroes so that I could search every single path at at least 1.  I found like two gem gen sites total in my territory in the first 18 turns.  Instead I got a bunch of crappy "mundane" sites like supply generators, extra recruitment, extra resources.  The only useful one out of the lot of them was a library that let me recruit sages, which was... actually pretty amazing.  Basically negated my nation's research disadvantage, not that I knew what to do with the extra research.

My neighbors were Ermor, Pan, C'tis, and Ulm.  However, my "natural" opponent was Ulm, and there happens to be a guide on the internet about how to fight Niefelhiem to a standstill as Ulm by taking advantage of two disadvantages: poor per-tile offense (which Ulm's dual wielders are good at) and fire vulnerability.  Given what I know of Hellheart he would have almost certainly crippled me if I'd tried to go after him at my skill level back then.  The terrain just wasn't good for fighting the other three.  I could have negated this disadvantage by, um, realizing that Niefelhiem is insane and just picking one person and rekking them.  I allowed myself to be discouraged by seeing other people's 100+ armies and thinking "shit, all I've got are these 20 giants".  I also should have fucked everything else and researched construction 4 so I could turn out SCs unreasonably early.  Instead of going after fricken conjuration because that was the only way I could figure out how to make my mages do anything useful.

What really, truly wasn't fair about the terrain in this game was the fact that it wasn't double wrap.  Pan had, what, 40 provinces?  Only 6 of which were bordered by other land nations.  That's a whole lot of resources being channeled into two very narrow chokepoints.  The last wars saw Pan and Ulm fighting against Fomoria and Neifelhiem, which doesn't make any sense politically.  Ulm was close to winning by thrones, Pan was close to snowballing to the point where they could fight everyone at once.  It should have been them duking it out and us two picking sides.  But because of the one way wrap, it was almost literally impossible for them NOT to be de facto allies against me and Fomoria.  They both got a big advantage by having a long safe border at the top and bottom of the map.  Again, not that I would have won either way.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

Shadowlord

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
« Reply #355 on: June 05, 2015, 05:18:21 pm »

I've never played a giant nation before, so I found that all very informative. Thanks for posting it.
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
« Reply #356 on: June 05, 2015, 07:35:05 pm »

Yeah, I think Leaking Land is otherwise a neat map but the lack of multiwrapping hurts it. At least if one of the north/south nations manages to carve themselves a "corner" of sorts, as I did. Arguably a more experienced player base (with the game and the map) could temper that. C'tis (or some other nation in their starting location) could have held my attack off, you or Fomoria could have expanded north to secure top of the map, etc. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. But yes, I do prefer full wrap for reasons that are obvious to the participants of this game.

Not that I did as well as I did purely due to that (it did help), Pan is strong from early to late game and I took advantage of that. C'tis in particular is weak to early wars, they didn't really have a chance (so I don't fault them for starting the war). It was a relatively quick and easy war, which netted me two, maybe three nations' worth of lands and an extra capital. And safe borders, of course. I also had decent luck with sites, gem sites were ok but what I really liked was the fact that I got A1S1 and S1N2 mages from two different sites that helped my diversity, Niefel felt the wrath of those A1S1's used by both me and my sub, or so I heard.

You're also correct about giants' lack of fighting power per square. Both me and my sub were of the mind that researching some buffs for revelers would be the counter for your giants. It never got to that point (at least while I was in charge), but I was confident I could beat those giants in the open field. As things were, I was busy picking off Fomoria and rich as I was, fighting two opponents at that stage did mean I had to exercise restraint in some areas.

Any thoughts about EA Pan? They're not my favourite. They're somewhat similar to MA Pan (possibly my #1 nation), but I find the lack of high E and pricier Pans to be a bit of a problem. I struggled to get stuff done just with N magic (I didn't really get into blood much, other than blood sacrificing some). I definitely didn't play the nation to its full potential. Food for thought, eh? ;)
Centaur Warriors were my MVP, as they tend to be. Just all around awesome units without any buffs necessary. They also don't kill my income (however temporarily) like some other units. They did suffer once I got round to fighting sacred giants, but against PD and other rabble they were superb raiders.
Revelers are great but I didn't really get around to buffing them before I bowed out of the game. Dryad Mothers were a decent mage, N2W1 with WE random (and my ability to easily churn out N boosters) meant that I could cast a bunch of neat N spells and some W ones as well as necessary.

I'm happy I participated, I wanted to experience first hand how EA and MA Pan differ and that's done. And I didn't do too badly in the game either. Shame about how it petered out when I left, but that happens occasionally. No use crying over that.

I think EnigmaticHat figured most of his lessons by himself, so I won't add any more wisdom here. Niefelheim is a strong nation, but giants do have their quirks and it seems you figured those out.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
« Reply #357 on: June 05, 2015, 10:47:03 pm »

There was also just... dumbness.  I didn't realize that I could go underground from one of my provinces, I staled like 5 times.  There was a point where I staled (I think maybe twice) and then I resumed playing Ermor had killed one of my expansion parties.

My opinions on the other players: Pan and Ulm both played well, Atlantis was mostly doomed from the beginning (who exactly would they stand a chance of invading?), Fomoria got sandwiched like I did but was actually pretty strong.  Speaking of which, me and Fomoria both fucked each other over in a passive-aggressive way.  When we met in the middle of Ermor we agreed to both attack Pan.  But they didn't attack Pan, instead they took all Ermor's land while I was going north to prepare.  Then when Pan did unveil their surprise attack I just kinda twirled a lock of my hair and hummed while revelers pillaged everything and Ulm invaded from the south.  Both of those are pretty minor tho, neither of us had a true obligation to help the other on either of those issues.

Ermor shot themselves in the foot in my opinion.  They antagonized me early by killing that expansion party and then didn't try finish me off.  I guess when I had my giants stationed my north fort both Ermor and Pan thought I was going to attack the other one, but... Ermor decided to start a war with Pan despite my army at their borders.  And then I finally crack the forward resistance and discover that there's no land to conquer because Fomoria invaded and claimed that Ermor ALSO attacked them.  IMO you always want to be at war with EXACTLY one person.  Ideally an offensive war of your choosing.  Especially when you're a human nation sandwiched between two giant nations and whatever the hell Pan counts as.  They should have been quaking in their sandals.
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"T-take this non-euclidean geometry, h-humanity-baka. I m-made it, but not because I l-li-l-like you or anything! I just felt s-sorry for you, b-baka."
You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule
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