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[Graknorke]

You don't technically need to have a blade that's as wide as the thing you're cutting. Cracks will propagate through anything with enough energy put into it.

[Thundercraft]

Compare the surface world and underworld to Arcanus and Myrror from MoM.

Wow, that's a blast from the past! (At least there's going to be a spiritual successor now.)

Spoiler: spoiler (click to show/hide)

What?  The hollow adamantine spires are pretty poor ideas for 'handling' demons.  Especially since a copper pick could pierce it.

More likely, the 2x2 hollow spires are meant to be a connector between the worlds of the demons and the more mortal realm...

I see where you're going. But:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My theory - or how I imagine it - is that adamantine has an innate anti-demon property, like a weak sort of kryptonite, such that it hurts demons to be near it, much less mine it and shape it. So they couldn't just dig through it.

Personally I think that a way to make demons stronger is simple...

We have discussed many things, including demons. But I think you misunderstood. They don't need to be made stronger. We were talking about how goblins need to be made stronger without just increasing their number.

[Urist Tilaturist]

You don't technically need to have a blade that's as wide as the thing you're cutting. Cracks will propagate through anything with enough energy put into it.

Of course it would be possible with infinite force - that was a mistake of mine. But do you think dwarves could generate that kind of force? The stresses involved would tear their arms off, regardless of strength, because of the g-forces away from their bodies being too strong for their shoulders. Such acts should be beyond the abilities of any dwarf, however legendary.

I thought demons were huge, but I really have no idea how big they are. If they are smaller than I thought, bisection could still be feasible. The only way that a short sword could cut through something thicker than its length would be if 1. the force was so huge that it vaporised, impossible since the dwarf's arms would be torn off by striking with such force or 2. if the force is within sensible bounds, the body was brittle and fractured, which is not really the case for flesh. Flesh tears, but these tears do not really spread like brittle fractures unless the flesh is cut most of the way through - if the force is reasonable for a dwarf.

It all comes down to how big demons are. I have no problems with a dwarf chopping off a goblin's leg in 1 stroke, but not an elephant's, and not a demon's the size of an elephant's either.

As for strengthening goblins, I already suggested steel armour, proper siegecraft with wall destruction and the end of the fainting from broken toes nonsense. Generals should be just as fallible as anyone else.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Take an adamantine short sword, and slash at a gorilla's waste. God job! You've now bisected it.

Since a gorilla's waste is just soft fecal matter, bisecting it is no issue whatsoever.

[Aslandus]

You don't technically need to have a blade that's as wide as the thing you're cutting. Cracks will propagate through anything with enough energy put into it.

Of course it would be possible with infinite force - that was a mistake of mine. But do you think dwarves could generate that kind of force? The stresses involved would tear their arms off, regardless of strength, because of the g-forces away from their bodies being too strong for their shoulders. Such acts should be beyond the abilities of any dwarf, however legendary.

I thought demons were huge, but I really have no idea how big they are. If they are smaller than I thought, bisection could still be feasible. The only way that a short sword could cut through something thicker than its length would be if 1. the force was so huge that it vaporised, impossible since the dwarf's arms would be torn off by striking with such force or 2. if the force is within sensible bounds, the body was brittle and fractured, which is not really the case for flesh. Flesh tears, but these tears do not really spread like brittle fractures unless the flesh is cut most of the way through - if the force is reasonable for a dwarf.

As for strengthening goblins, I already suggested steel armour, proper siegecraft with wall destruction and the end of the fainting from broken toes nonsense. Generals should be just as fallible as anyone else.

Presumably not every demon is huge, just as not every demon will get bisected... They are procedurally generated, so it's not unthinkable that some of them are small enough to be chopped in half by a decently strong dwarf with a shortsword

[Urist Tilaturist]

Small enough, and also without thick shells or scales. Essentially there should be an upper limit to a dwarf's strength given the g-force that his joints can tolerate. Besides this, there is also the issue that big swings are very poor weapon technique since they can be dodged more easily, are exhausting, the weapon could get stuck, and there is a long recovery time where the wielder cannot really block until he is ready to strike again. Skilled warriors would avoid big swings unless the foe was incapacitated and unable to retaliate (the hammerer with his victims), or so slow that they could dodge anyway.

[StagnantSoul]

Small enough, and also without thick shells or scales. Essentially there should be an upper limit to a dwarf's strength given the g-force that his joints can tolerate. Besides this, there is also the issue that big swings are very poor weapon technique since they can be dodged more easily, are exhausting, the weapon could get stuck, and there is a long recovery time where the wielder cannot really block until he is ready to strike again. Skilled warriors would avoid big swings unless the foe was incapacitated and unable to retaliate (the hammerer with his victims), or so slow that they could dodge anyway.

...So exactly like combat is now?

[Urist Tilaturist]

I had a marsh titan with a shell bisected across the waist by a legendary swordsdwarf. Something is clearly wrong with DF combat. I have no idea how big that titan was, but the word "titan" indicates that it was bigger than an elephant. That should be physically impossible.

There is not really enough difference between the technique of skilled and unskilled warriors either. Skilled swordsdwarves, for example, should try to stab through gaps in a goblin's armour (if the goblin was armoured), maybe half swording, and use the sword to aid wrestling if it happens, while unskilled ones would just stab wildly hoping to find a gap. Biting somebody in armour, or punching him without gauntlets, should only be for untrained civilians and result in broken teeth or knuckles respectively.

[StagnantSoul]

Marsh titans are made of salt, and the shell doesn't cover the waist.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Marsh titans are made of salt, and the shell doesn't cover the waste.

Obviously it doesn't have a shell on its poo, no.

It makes a lot more sense if the titan was made of salt, since salt has brittle fractures. Maybe I should learn my titans better.

[Aslandus]

Marsh titans are made of salt, and the shell doesn't cover the waste.

It's spelled waist, he's going to keep making fun of you about this until you start spelling it right...

Small enough, and also without thick shells or scales. Essentially there should be an upper limit to a dwarf's strength given the g-force that his joints can tolerate. Besides this, there is also the issue that big swings are very poor weapon technique since they can be dodged more easily, are exhausting, the weapon could get stuck, and there is a long recovery time where the wielder cannot really block until he is ready to strike again. Skilled warriors would avoid big swings unless the foe was incapacitated and unable to retaliate (the hammerer with his victims), or so slow that they could dodge anyway.

Urist, you seem to have a lot of suggestions for how combat should work, are you going to the suggestion forum to actually talk about them or just putting them here?
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?board=5.0

[Urist Tilaturist]

I am actually talking about them here. I could create a thread, but I feel that DF combat falls into the "flawed masterpiece" category at the moment - about right for an alpha game, but the smaller problems at least could be fixed quickly. Some tweaks, like stopping creatures fainting from broken toes, would be very easy for Toady to do as well - I have done them in my raws, but players should not really have to do it themselves.

[Insanegame27]

Some tweaks, like stopping creatures fainting from broken toes, would be very easy for Toady to do as well - I have done them in my raws, but players should not really have to do it themselves.

i wholeheartedly agree with not having to do it ourselves. but that's what modders are for!