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Author Topic: Economics  (Read 2152 times)

3man75

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Economics
« on: August 10, 2014, 11:56:08 am »

So recently i learned about economics and asked my friends about it. Apparently it's how goods/services move around and it involves a bit of psychology (buyer/seller attitudes) and other market forces like the central bank. Anyway, i'm majoring in it right now but after i took my pre-algebra class i found something. I'm not as good at math as i thought.

Throughout this summer semester i did very well but the teacher made a change in the final exams schedule from being one week away to being the very next day of class. She notified us 20 mins before coming in and didn't let me use some of my notes for the test. Others found it easy and got out with an "A" in the class but i did so poorly on the test that despite a 20 point curve i found myself with a "C" at the end. Now a "C" still passes but now i'm wondering if i should drop this major and change again?

I know economics has a portion known as econometric's which has to do with statistics but i also don't exactly know how well i would do in that class. I just seem to have trouble with knowing what formulas should be used during word problems or some questions. As well as graduate school in this feild involves proving mathematical equations. one teacher described that knowing that 2+2=4 but the proof behind that is much more complicated as an example. Still not sure how hard that will be or if i can do that.

I know how to solve them and make them equal which is the basics of algebra but i just don't know how much this surprise exam effected my grade nor do i know how good i am in math now. I feel like my confidence which i regained this summer in math has been taken from me and thrown under a bus.

In conclusion i really don't want to drop this because i like business and i think the economy is interesting as well as the people/forces that drive it. But is this interest not to be?
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gimlet

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Re: Economics
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2014, 07:25:35 pm »

You probably have to drill over and over on word problems until you can do them all without breaking a sweat.  Get books of problems, and other textbooks with problems, and just keep doing em.  Copy some onto cards and mix them up, so you don't know what chapter they come from (that's a HUGE hint that you don't usually get on a test).  Find somebody else who wants to drill, and find/make up problems for each other.  See if your school has a tutoring program (lots have a FREE one), and get your tutor to help you with the strategy of solving the problems and drilling you on problems.

To save money you can get a lot of texts/problem books from the library, or look on used book sites like alibris.  Also, ask your teachers "Hey, I'm having trouble with word problems and I want to do more for practice.  Can you recommend some books or possibly loan me some books with problems?" (they get a ton of sample textbooks for free, and would almost certainly be happy to loan you a few).

Even if you have to buy them brand new, bite the bullet and do it.  Invest the time, steadily, multiple times throughout the week.  At first it will be a struggle, but then you'll be amazed at how you will zip through problems without needing to look up anything in the book.  Rereading the chapters, sometimes from different texts, will help you understand and remember WHY you're using particular formulas, which helps a lot remembering WHICH formulas.

I would recommend trying this for 1 or 2 more classes, if, after that, you can honestly say you tried your best but just couldn't get it, and don't see any way to improve, then yeah start thinking about another plan.  But really, this doesn't look like anything that a bit of hard work won't cure.   This happens a lot to "good students" in high school when they hit their first challenging college courses.  In HS it was usually enough to mostly follow along in lectures, maybe read the chapter once while watching TV, do the homework, and you breeze through the tests anyway.  In college there's a lot less handholding - you will have to evaluate your progress on your own, and sometimes do a LOT of extra work when something isn't clicking the 1st time.
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3man75

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Re: Economics
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2014, 10:00:51 pm »

Well gimlet, I do have a school tutoring program I can go to and I still have the book.

However, the class is done as I have said. I don't really see my teacher ((very aloof but helpful)) giving me free help or any at all. She's a part time professor with a job as a h.s math teacher. So kinda stuck on that part.

I'll definitely work harder with brushing up the things on the book though ( 9 chapters only..that me be straw hatted) with my tutor and see what happens next semester when I take "advanced algebra".

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mainiac

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Re: Economics
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 09:28:56 pm »

You are an undergrad student?

If you are interested in doing economics longterm, ironically you probably dont want to major in it in undergrad.  A grad program would rather you major in math or physics or something like that and have a couple of courses of economics then major in economics and have only basic math.

If you just want to do it undergrad, keep in mind that none of the sexy stuff is available to those with a bachelors.  If you manage to get an internship in college you can probably land an assistantship or junior analyst position after graduation and do grunt econometric work until you get bored enough to go to grad school or give up on the field.  But both me and my best friend ended up working outside our field after undergrad and ended up going to grad school to try and improve our prospects.

So recently i learned about economics and asked my friends about it. Apparently it's how goods/services move around and it involves a bit of psychology (buyer/seller attitudes)

Like sort of tangentially?  Within microeconomics there is a lot of work on trying to predict human behaviors but an economist wouldn't even be qualified to teach a psych 101 class.  If you are interested in learning what people do, econ is good.  If you are interested in learning how people tick, it's not for you.

Throughout this summer semester i did very well but the teacher made a change in the final exams schedule from being one week away to being the very next day of class. She notified us 20 mins before coming in and didn't let me use some of my notes for the test. Others found it easy and got out with an "A" in the class but i did so poorly on the test that despite a 20 point curve i found myself with a "C" at the end. Now a "C" still passes but now i'm wondering if i should drop this major and change again?

To be blunt I dont think you can do economics well at all unless you can work your way up to basic calculus (very basic, just so your understand what derivatives and integrals are, not any of the frills) and basic statistics (you need to have solid grasp of the basics but not so much the frills).  So you need to get to work.

But maybe you are giving up on your math abilities too soon?  Like gimlet says, school tutoring programs can do wonders if you knuckle down and apply yourself.  I knew this one older woman who went back to school afraid of pre-algebra and ended up graduating with a math degree.  I tutored several students who weren't that dramatic but still showed marked improvement.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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3man75

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Re: Economics
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 11:29:56 am »

Maniac quick question: I've been told by a economics teacher something similar. He actually told me that majoring in business and than going into economics is probably a nicer path because of the reasons you laid out.

He even told me a story about the only reason he being accepted into a masters course for economics was because of his strong math background (ironically he was a music major beforehand).

Thoughts? I know businesses hire people and NOT degree's but that peice of paper is very important in getting through Human resources...at least to my understanding.

EDIT: btw i know i'm weak with quadratic stuff, does this look promising for a math noob like me? http://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/9781500398378?matches=1

Fuck it, i decided to buy it.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:43:01 am by 3man75 »
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mainiac

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Re: Economics
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 12:25:47 pm »

The general impression that I have is that business is not a very good major to have if you want to go into grad school.  But a bachelors in econ is supposedly pretty weaksauce as well so you might want to do business just because it's the easier path (I'm assuming, your university may vary).  Make sure to focus on getting those math courses if you are planning to do the grad route.  Your professors experience sounds a lot like other cases that I've heard.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

3man75

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Re: Economics
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 10:24:19 am »

Uhh. College sucks sometimes.

Actually, and don't laugh, i'm in community college. It offers 4 year courses but it's mostly for you to get an AA. It's also cheaper than more..prestigious universities which is one reason why i went along with this path.
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filorux

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Re: Economics
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 10:31:05 am »

This may be a terribly long post, but it touches on subjects I know something about, so please excuse.  I went back to school at 37 for a degree in Econ.  All schools and professors are different, but let me share what I can with you to maybe help you decide. 

First the math - Mainiac was pretty much dead on.  In Econ you will do lots of algebra of the sort you mentioned:  set two equations equal and solve for two variables such as price/quantity, or output/interest rate.  In macro you might end up with a third equation/variable for exchange rates, but that is a minor complication.  As for calculus, you'll need to do 1st, 2nd derivatives, and partial differentiation on 4-5 variables for the high level micro stuff (but you only need to do the techniques, you don't need to show the proof for differentiation for example).  For econometrics, at the least you will do hypothesis testing, correlation analysis, single and multiple regression, time series analysis, plus error handling for those.  I hope that isn't all overwhelming you - if you are motivated to learn, armok knows you'll have plenty of opportunity to practice those techniques as they are everywhere in Econ, especially the core curriculum.  (Update:  I just reread, you said it was pre-algebra where the word problems were tricking you up)  Here's the thing about math - in a regular math class they are probably throwing many different situations that require different ways to solve them.  In econ, the math is far more specific - and you end up doing the same things over and over.  I'm not saying it can't get tricky at times, but for the most part those techniques I listed above will get drilled into you.  If not, you'll need to do the drilling yourself - either way, as long as there is drilling...yes.  Your basic micro might not even involve algebra, by the way.  You can do a lot of that level of econ without equations - you simply are working with the graphs of equations while not worrying about the actual equations. YMMV because some principles profs will dig into the equations while others will focus more on the econ.  By managerial econ (or junior level core, whatever they call it) you will deal with equations, however. 

The econ electives can be great if you are interested in the topics they cover.  I'm talking environmental, health, econ of government, financial markets, banking, theory of money, development econ (3rd world), etc.  Math in the electives will follow the core - junior level electives will probably stick to the same level of difficulty as junior core, etc.  For a break from the math, if the school offers them, check out Comparative Econ and History of Economics.

One thing you could do, to see if you are really going to be interested in learning more Econ - look up Mark Thoma on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/markthoma/playlists).  He is a professor at Oregon State who has recorded a number of his courses over the years.  I wouldn't try to watch the econometrics series, but his others are great.  In fact, I watched his monetary theory class the summer before I took macro.  A lot of what I learned from those videos carried me through much of basic macro.  Furthermore, to gauge your interest in econ, you can check out his blog (http://economistsview.typepad.com/) or any number of books for a non-econ-sophisticated audience such as Freakonomics by Levitt and Dubner, The Undercover Economist by Tim Harford, and especially The Economic Naturalist by Robert Frank.  Check the school library for others.  Who knows, maybe a degree in econ isn't for you, but that doesn't mean you can't be interested in it on the side.  Warning:  be careful with choosing leisure reading economics books.  Many times they are political discourse in the guise of economics.  The books I listed are fairly free from politics, but a lot of hacks make their living exploiting the intersection of the two.  Obviously most text books will not have any of that, but they aren't exactly leisure reading, either.  I should say, Thoma's blog has a liberal slant to it, but his youtubes do not, and besides everything will have some slant - at least Thoma has his bona fides besides. 

Let's take the angle that you want to go the business degree route instead of econ.  Your business school either has a competitive program or not.  It is competitive if there are more students wanting in than they have room for.  If it is competitive then they will do different things to whittle down the applicants.  Either they will require you to take certain courses before applying, or admit you openly then "let you go" if you do not perform to a certain level in the early classes.  End of the day, it is the same thing - you will need to perform well in some early courses in order to move on.  (ps - my wife is a biz professor familiar with several institutions)  Typically those early classes will include basic micro/macro econ, and basic statistics.  You'll need to pass each, and then have a cumulative GPA over a certain number for those classes.  You'll need to look up or ask someone in administration what those classes, if any, are at you school (and the grades you need in them).  If it is non-competitive then you'll probably have to pass your classes to graduate, but the terms will be much less strict.

With that in mind here is one path you could take:  Take the next econ (especially if it is req for biz school or counts as basic studies), something else that is a req for biz school, and a few others that fulfill basic studies for any major (think english, math, foreign language, history, etc...).  At the end of that semester/year assess yourself.  You should be in a position to know if econ is for you.  You can also determine if you are in a position to gain admittance to the biz school.  Finally, if both of those are negative, then by taking a basic studies or two, you haven't wasted any time as those can be applied almost anywhere. 

Hopefully something in all that is helpful.  I just saw you posted about it being a community college.  Unfortunately I have no experience in that area, but it is nothing to laugh at.  Any decision to further your education is worthy of applause, and you can tell anyone who laughs that my mother said so.  If nothing else, at least I gave you a few sources to check out.
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mainiac

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Re: Economics
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 01:24:27 pm »

One thing you could do, to see if you are really going to be interested in learning more Econ - look up Mark Thoma on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/markthoma/playlists).

Thoma is even more great then I thought!

His blog is a fantastic resource.  Just read through anything there that looks interesting and you'll pick up so much by osmosis that everything is old hat by the time you see it in school.

Actually, and don't laugh, i'm in community college. It offers 4 year courses but it's mostly for you to get an AA. It's also cheaper than more..prestigious universities which is one reason why i went along with this path.

I have an AA myself and am currently a grad student.  It's not like it holds you back and it's a great way to save on tuition.  Plus many of them have tie ins with 4 year colleges and university for preferred admissions.

Knowing you are in a CC means you have plenty of time to fill in the gaps.  I dont think your major for your AA will matter very much, I just went with liberal arts because it had the fewest credits.  Look instead towards getting yourself prepared for your BS/BA by getting those essential math skills.  Check if you can get english prerequisites that will transfer credits to your state schools, that's a pretty good metric for if they are generally accepted for transfer credits.  If you can be ready to take calculus and statistics your first year in undergrad (junior or maybe senior if you are fantastic at scheduling and do a lot of CC work) you can graduate with a BS/BA and all the skills you'd need.

Also, read, read, read, read.  Economists blog like it is going out of style and reading that stuff should be a constant daily activity.  In addition to Thoma I'd suggest Delong and Krugman (both of whom are prolific).  You wont understand everything at first but that's okay, it's just about exposing yourself to the way of thinking.  Thinking about optimums and equilibrium isn't all math and if you just read voraciously for years it will start to sink in.  Of course read books too, often you can find pdfs of older or really popular stuff with just a little bit of searching.

This might actually be a good thing for you to read if you like economic history: http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Temin2013.pdf
In going through economic history Temin explains a lot of stuff in laymans terms.  There is some statistics but he explains what it does and isn't too opaque.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 04:19:50 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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3man75

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Re: Economics
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2014, 04:00:00 pm »

Thanks again guys. I'm working on my math skills before the new semesters starts (starts tomorrow and ive been getting to brush up on my factoring skills. Which i wanted to ask...how useful are they in algebra?) and i'm hoping it'll be enough to not get blown away.

By the way would any of you guys be willing to allow me to messege you via PM's to ask for math opinions? I don't want to clutter B12 with math threads over and over again.
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mainiac

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Re: Economics
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 04:32:07 pm »

I'd be down for that.

Factoring is something that is semi-obsolete with graphing software in existence but is good to know because it makes you more comfortable with math.  Most people aren't bad at math, they aren't comfortable with it because they dont do it enough and dont know enough different kinds.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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3man75

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Re: Economics
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2014, 06:51:05 pm »

I'd be down for that.

 Most people aren't bad at math, they aren't comfortable with it because they dont do it enough and dont know enough different kinds.

First thank you i'll add you to my buddy list here.

Second ive heard this before many times  but i feel it's more of a labeling thing. For example if your a child and you burn your hand on the stove than it'll hurt and you (hopefully) learn to not do this again fearing pain. I feel that at least for me, it's the fact that math seems to put my logic to the test and sometimes makes me feel retarded beyond hope or despair. There are also the times i felt i was never going to pass college and get a good job because of math frustrated me so that i would go home crying. At one point it had me thinking that me being the race i am (which for personel reasons i won't divulge) made me inferior in logic based assessment. I know/feel this isn't true because i did pass that class and it only took hard work (not trying to marginalize it) and it's what i'm planning on doing now to continue to pass and hopefully LEARN algebra and other math.

By the way what's discreet mathematics? I found it on the list of my schools classes for math and found it peculiar. Why is it called discrete?
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mainiac

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Re: Economics
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 07:31:31 am »

By the way what's discreet mathematics? I found it on the list of my schools classes for math and found it peculiar. Why is it called discrete?

I actually managed to miss out on discrete math entirely over the course of getting my math degree o.o .  But I believe it's more oriented towards logic and algorithms.  Prime numbers would be an example IIRC.  Discrete math isn't something you would need to be particularly worried about for economics, statistics and calculus are what you really want to be working towards.

Your experience with getting burned by math is one that I have seen over and over again in my experience as a tutor.  But I've seen tons of students overcome it and am sure you can do so as well!  I've never seen a student who didn't improve with practice and the few students I had who refused to practice didn't improve.  There are going to be parts you are bad at, that is natural and everybody faces those, the important part is you keep working at them.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.