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Author Topic: How to make a safe goods drop shute (pressure plate knowledge needed)?  (Read 2255 times)

ullrich

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I like to use minecarts to drop goods onto a floor below onto a quantum stockpile for efficient space usage such as this:
W = Wall
M = Minecart
S = stockpile
__ = Floor

W MW
__SWW

Now this is fine 95% of the time but every now and then a dwarf will get his skull caved in if he happens to be at the stockpile as a new load is dropped. I am trying to get this to be more secure with a hatch & pressure plate setup but unfortunately "If a pressure plate sends an open command to a door, floodgate, or hatch that is already opened, nothing happens." which requires a not gate so:
H = Hatch
P = Pressure Plate

WMW
WHWW<- To prevent item scatter & dwarves trying to retrieve these items
PSWW

According to the wiki http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Pressure_plate
"Resetting pressure plates send two signals: an open signal, when first triggered by an appropriate creature or fluid; and a close signal, set to occur 99 ticks after the pressure criteria are no longer met. They do not send continuous open signals while the pressure criteria are met. A pressure plate that is untriggered then retriggered before it has sent a close signal will not send an open signal on the second trigger, and will abort the close signal scheduled to occur from the untriggering."

1) Using a NOT gate to initial put the hatch into an open state.
2) Dwarf moves to stockpile, pressure plate closes hatch.
3) Dwarf grabs item and leaves.
4) Another dwarf triggers the plate delaying the opening by another 99 ticks.
5) 99 Ticks after the last trigger the hatch opens again.

QUESTIONS:
A) I want to confirm the last 2 steps as I know some of you have far more experience then me with pressure plates.
B) Is 100 ticks enough for a dwarf to grab an item?
C) How to deal with the 100 tick delay of bridges/grates or would a not gate + hatch as described here (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:SL/Logic_Gates#NOT_gate) work better? NOT Gate Required!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 09:25:09 pm by ullrich »
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Loci

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I like to use minecarts to drop goods onto a floor below onto a quantum stockpile for efficient space usage such as this:

The vertical drop is entirely unnecessary. Place your quantum stockpile on the same floor as your minecart and all falling-item accidents will be prevented.

1) Using a lever to initial put the bridge into an open state.
2) Dwarf moves to stockpile, pressure plate closes bridge.
3) Dwarf grabs item and leaves.
4) Another dwarf triggers the plate delaying the opening by another 99 ticks.
5) 99 Ticks after the last trigger the bridge opens again.

Signals don't work like that in Dwarf Fortress. When the pressure plate sends an "open" signal to an already-opened bridge, nothing happens (it doesn't toggle closed). The only device which does toggle on each signal is a gear assembly. Theoretically, your pressure plate could open a hatch which drains water from a tile with a water-triggered pressure plate that is connected to your bridge...

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ullrich

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The vertical drop is entirely unnecessary. Place your quantum stockpile on the same floor as your minecart and all falling-item accidents will be prevented.

There are many advantages to the drop method: it makes the layout a lot neater (tracks not on workshop level), can fully surround it with workshops, high speed powered minecarts that don't splat dwarves (they wont path there), etc.

Signals don't work like that in Dwarf Fortress. When the pressure plate sends an "open" signal to an already-opened bridge, nothing happens (it doesn't toggle closed). The only device which does toggle on each signal is a gear assembly. Theoretically, your pressure plate could open a hatch which drains water from a tile with a water-triggered pressure plate that is connected to your bridge...
Then the wiki on that section is worded very strangely as it specifically lists doors, hatches and floodgates as not responding to open when open but not bridges or grates, I even quoted it. And I guess my memory of a 2 lever bridge is off as well. Regardless the step pattern still logically works with a not gate the timing questions still remain.

Someone should fix the wording of "If a pressure plate sends an open command to a door, floodgate, or hatch that is already opened, nothing happens. The only exception to this is gear assemblies, which toggle their engaged/disengaged state on every trigger from a lever or pressure plate."
to something like "If a pressure plate sends an open command to a component that is already opened, such as a door, floodgate, or hatch, nothing happens. The only exception to this is gear assemblies, which toggle their engaged/disengaged state on every trigger from a lever or pressure plate."
So it doesn't imply exclusivity, will edit original post.
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GavJ

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I don't think it's ever worth the effort just for space saving in industry.  The only time to bother doing this is for something like a roleplaying leper colony or whatever.

For actual practical usage, just set the carts to "guide" not "push" and put it on the same floor and then don't worry about any of it.

In fact, most of the time, there's not even any great reason to have rails for long distance transport at all, and the quantum stockpile thing can just one a single 1x1 piece of track with a stop, then use normal hauling and wheelbarrows. Since you can put workshop outputs and inputs right next to each other, they only haul a few feet, so whatever. Raw materials are rarely sourced from a consistent enough location for minecarts to actually make good minecarts.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 09:34:11 pm by GavJ »
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Panando

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It's essentially impossible to make security through pressure plates doors/hatches/retracting bridges, basically because pressure plates and doors can get "stuck", a pressure plate wont reset until nothing has triggered it for a sufficient number of ticks. Hatches and retracting bridges can't get stuck, but dwarves can jump or climb when they open out from under them. This makes it like herding cats.
As loci notes, it's as simple as having the minecart dump on the same level - dwarves are not harmed if the items are dumped on them as long as the items don't fall. This does create the potential of a dwarf walking onto the tracks and isn't so great if you want to drop items 150 z levels.

If you really want to use a drop chute, then in some cases it's possible to build a "conveyor belt" which uses flowing water to move items, this only works well if the items weigh less than 100 units (99 is perfectly fine, 100 is a weird magic number where items become difficult to move by water), the main things which weigh more than 100 units are stones, some metal/stone items (especially furniture) and the corpses of large creatures. For reference, a heavy dwarf weighs more than 100 units, most dwarves weigh less.

How water pushing works is this: When water flows from one tile, into another tile, then the tile the water is flowing into becomes a "conveyor belt" which pushes items in the direction the water is flowing into the tile. This results in items being pushed from that tile into an adjacent tile even if the water itself isn't flowing into that tile.

Lets say you have a pump, followed by a floor, followed by a downstairs or grate which the water flows down, with a water return loop:

The water flow (seen from the side) like this:

 pP↝↓   
↑↜↜↜↜


Now, the forces tiles apply to items, looks like this:

 pP
↑↜↜↜↜


No motive force is applied to items in the pump outlet tile and items will just stay put there, this is because water isn't flowing into that tile from any direction [this is a logic bug, water is "teleported" into the pump outlet tile, so the game doesn't think water is flowing into the tile, and the game doesn't care what direction water flows out of a tile], now in the next tile, water is flowing into the tile from the left, so the tile becomes a "left to right" conveyor belt that will push any items into the tile to the right. This is in spite of the fact that the water is *actually* flowing downwards in that tile. Items end up deposited high and dry on the right tile.

Other than determining the fairly whacky logic of how water pushes items, I haven't really explored the potential of water conveyor belts. However they do at least have the potential to solve some otherwise intractable problems. For example if a drop chute drops items onto a water conveyor belt where the water is 4-6 tiles deep, then because of the water dwarves will be simply incapable of pathing onto the tile, the flowing water will push the items along until they end up on a dry tile where dwarves can collect the items. The only real proviso for this setup, is that items *must not* land on the pump outlet tile, as no motive force is generated in that tile. Also the water *must* be less than 7 deep at least some of the time, or again, the game wont generate any motive force.

Conveyor belts would be awesome, if not for the fairly serious limitation that they stop working well for items which weigh 100+. They do still work, but might take a few (dwarf) days or months to move all the items. It should also be noted that any such setup can double as a mist generator and dwarven water reactor.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 09:46:46 pm by Panando »
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YAHG

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I drop stuff onto 1 tile retractable bridges myself, every once and a while I pull the bridge's lever. You can also drop into a room with a stockpile with a locked door blocking access and just make sure either the door is locked or the bridge is closed.

ullrich

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For actual practical usage, just set the carts to "guide" not "push" and put it on the same floor and then don't worry about any of it.
..  single 1x1 piece of track with a stop...
Far less fun and just abuses the mechanics imo.

... security ...
Not a concern at all, its easy to be safe, I'm no DF noob and actually somewhat like evil regions, once DF2014 finishes stabilizing I will likely be trying partial evil embarks, love me that phantom spider surface webs.

If you really want to use a drop chute, then in some cases it's possible to build a "conveyor belt" which uses flowing water ...
More limited, more complex, messy, and fps killer for large systems, don't see how that's better...

... every once and a while I pull the bridge's lever ...
There is no point if its not automated imo.
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GavJ

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Quote
Far less fun and just abuses the mechanics imo.
Fun, sure.

But abusing mechanics?  ? ??? ?
Are you suggesting it's physically impossible for a dwarf to push a minecart in such a way that it could be safer than just launching an unattended cart blindly? Billions of people in real life who cross streets in real life every day attest otherwise...
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Panando

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If you really want to use a drop chute, then in some cases it's possible to build a "conveyor belt" which uses flowing water ...
More limited, more complex, messy, and fps killer for large systems, don't see how that's better...
[/quote]

I've used these kind of things with flowing water pretty often. It doesn't kill FPS unless you do it on a very large scale. A setup with a single pump and waterwheel, you probably wont notice the impact. If you're wanting dozens of such setups, maybe. One of the tricks appears to be constraining the water. A good way to get FPS hit from flowing water is to have a lot of it happening, as happens when a large amount of water drains into the caverns. An open-loop water conveyor belt (i.e. water going from river to caverns) would probably hurt your FPS. One using a pump and waterwheel almost certainly wont.

However I did think of a way of exploiting the new climbing mechanisms to create setups where dwarves can leave under their own power, but probably wont enter under their own power. If a dwarf gets locked into a small space, he'll immediately climb out before you can do anything, this has thwarted my nefarious plans more than once.

A setup like this might work: At the top, you have a pressure plate on the tracks, which is set to be triggered by a minecart, either just before or after it has hit the dumping track stop (depending on how deep the chute goes).

At the bottom, have a de-ramped channel covered with a hatch or retracting bridge linked to the pressure plate. Dwarves must cross the hatch/bridge to get to the drop zone.

Code: [Select]
 # #
 # #   
 _ #
# ##
###

Now when the minecart triggers the pressureplate, the hatch will immediately open, if a dwarf happens to be already at the bottom he'll find himself trapped, and jump or climb to freedom. Other dwarves on their way, will probably NOT bother jumping or climbing, as these behaviours appear to relate to being trapped and aren't just used as a handy expedient for completing a job, as such they simply wont enter the drop zone.

The tumbling items of skull-crushing doom will land a precise amount of time after being dumped, the idea is the minecart should run over the pressure plate just before the tumbling items of doom land. Timing is everything.

Now all this depends on the somewhat uncertain logic of when dwarves decide they are trapped and when they decide it's time to jump/climb.
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jcochran

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Try making the destination multi-level.


Level Z+1 = Hatch cover triggered by pressure plate. The hatch cover is at the end of a passageway
                  with a door next to it, pressure plate is on other side of door
Level Z     = final destination of drop

Theory of operation. The dwarves prefer to grab the items on Level Z (assuming you've made it so that workshops, etc are closer to the stockpile on level Z) and when there is no more stuff there because it's empty, they then start traveling to get the stuff on level Z+1. But while they're walking there, they trigger the pressure plate that causes the stuff to drop down to level Z. I assume there's no dwarves standing on the level Z spot since it's empty.
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Shazbot

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Consider making the workshop level a turtle-shell hardhat and silver-mail-shirt visibility vest zone. Dwarf OSHA!
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Sutremaine

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... every once and a while I pull the bridge's lever ...
There is no point if its not automated imo.
For these 'every once in a while' things I've put a pressure plate in a dwarf's bedroom. Permanent military dwarves are good, as they go to their bedrooms only when they need sleep.

Edit: There was a bodge job in a much earlier fortress that actually turned out quite well.

Code: [Select]
#.___<--
#.######
#.######
#.######
_=_===__
High-speed minecart comes in from the right, skips the gap and slams into the wall, shotgunning its contents into the wall. Cart and contents then fall down the shaft, where there is a non-linked links-only minecart stockpile (=). One dwarf has the job of manually lugging the cart back to its starting position, and by the time that's done the cart contents have been moved to final storage (===).

I have an idea for an automatic pressure plate system, but I'm not sure if it'll work with minecart physics. The basic idea is that the pressure plate opens a hatch above a down ramp. When the hatch is closed, the minecart can pass over it to the drop area. When the hatch is open, the minecart drops down the ramp into a loop that returns it to the path passing over the tile with the hatch. The tricky part is keeping the speed correct. I've never had much success controlling cart speeds with ramps and track stops alone.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 06:50:14 pm by Sutremaine »
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