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[Loud Whispers]

20mil number includes forced starvation. Knowing no context of this conversation, how did we get to this point?

Things that will NOT make me buy your Alpha Game:

• DF is being updated

[Henny]

20mil number includes forced starvation.

Uh, what forced starvation, exactly? If you're referring to the Holodomor, it was not an intentional policy, as shown by the Soviet government actually providing famine relief. It could in no way account for that number anyway, since "only" about 4 million people died. For comparison, the Bengal famine in British India killed ca. 3 million.

I realize this isn't the thread for this, but I'm tired of people confusing ignorance/propaganda for historical truth.

[Loud Whispers]

Uh, what forced starvation, exactly? If you're referring to the Holodomor, it was not an intentional policy, as shown by the Soviet government actually providing famine relief. It could in no way account for that number anyway, since "only" about 4 million people died. For comparison, the Bengal famine in British India killed ca. 3 million.
I realize this isn't the thread for this, but I'm tired of people confusing ignorance/propaganda for historical truth.

Right, because Stalin, a man renowned for his humanitarian efforts and in no way known for his totalitarianism and easy use of anything from secret police to mass starvation as a weapon to destroy nationalism did not premeditate any famines from his position of power at all. Oh they sent aid, how thoughtful of them as they exported all of Ukraine's grain.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also 20 million is a very conservative guess of how many Russians the USSR killed, even if you're just talking Stalin alone and you exclude the Holodomor because they starved mostly Ukrainians.
"Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2  to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953.

Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.

Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million.

In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.

In “Europe A History,” British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties.

Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, a Soviet politician and historian, estimated 35 million deaths.

Even some who have put out estimates based on research admit their calculations may be inadequate.
http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789

I mean with the Holodomor you'd have to be nuts to say it was an unintentional famine when Stalin had been deporting and killing millions of Ukrainian farmers well before that and during the actual Holodomor the hungry were refused to leave and were denied their own grain. The East India company caused the Bengal famine through avarice and the pursuit of profit, Stalin wanted to break the Ukrainians. You talk of ignorance and propaganda whilst supporting Josef Stalin with soviet propaganda. Confusing.

Should we make a new thread for this? I wouldn't know what to call it as I don't really have much context on it, but three posts is a party that can derail a thread off to the forced labour camps.

[Sergarr]

pls no

the shitstorm would be bigger than ukraine thread

[Henny]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million.

In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.

A book written by a mathematician in 1983. Next you're probably telling me that Robert Conquest is a reliable source.

In his acclaimed book “The Great Terror: Stalin’s Purge of the Thirties,” Anglo-American historian Robert Conquest said: “We get a figure of 20 million dead [under Stalin], which is almost certainly too low and might require an increase of 50 percent or so.”

Wait, the article you copy-pasted from just did.

Look, there's been a lot of research since the opening of Soviet archives and it's frankly embarrassing to try to use these outdated and biased books as sources. If you're really interested in it, Stephen G. Wheatcroft is a good starting point.

I mean with the Holodomor you'd have to be nuts to say it was an unintentional famine when Stalin had been deporting and killing millions of Ukrainian farmers well before that and during the actual Holodomor the hungry were refused to leave and were denied their own grain. The East India company caused the Bengal famine through avarice and the pursuit of profit, Stalin wanted to break the Ukrainians.

But there's no evidence that the famine was intentionally exacerbated. Most evidence indicates that it was the result of weather, incredibly poor Soviet farming practices such as overfarming land repeatedly from 1929-33 and the massive disruption of collectivization rather than a coherent policy. Soviet authorities overestimated the 1932 harvest and the scale of the resulting shortages. While it's undeniable that force was used to seize grain, this was due to ignorance rather than maliciousness. Evidence also points to the fact that the Soviet government repeatedly reduced the amount of grain demanded (By 30%) and provided food and seed aid but significantly underestimated the scale of the famine. Special orders were also given to prioritize feeding children regardless of ethnicity. The only lethal discrimination you see is when dying peasants weren't fed while peasants able to recover and resume work were, but this wasn't ethnic or class based.

Outside of Ukrainian nationalists and their supporters like Conquest there's no consensus that Stalin wanted to destroy Ukrainian identity through collectivization.

[Leafsnail]

This thread has a very steep derail curve.

[Loud Whispers]

pls no

the shitstorm would be bigger than ukraine thread

Ha, yeah that's true.

[penguinofhonor]

This was a pretty low quality necro.