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[Ai Shizuka]

Never bothered with above-ground crops, but this time I wanted to use pigtails for brewing only and rope reeds for clothing.
After two years the human assholes finally brought me a bag of seeds.

This is the farm, wich should be ok:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The seeds are in the stockpile near the farm, not forbidden.
But when I try to set-up the farm, I get the message: "No seeds available for this location", for all seasons.

I'm in a freezing tundra, so I suspect that's the reason.
But I didn't find a conclusive answer, so I'd like someone to confirm.

[sal880612m]

All above ground crops need the farm plot to have or have been exposed to the surface. Further I am relatively certain no above ground crops will ever grow in biomes with the FREEZING token. Despite not always being cold Mountains have the FREEZING tag. I remember having a similar issue in a mountain biome and this was the reason I couldn't grow them.

Edit: Thinking back I am not sure I tried after roofing the area off but because of how inside/outside, light/dark, and above ground/subterranean tile properties currently work I don't think it will make a difference.

[Witty]

Yeah, rope reeds can only be grown in a non-freezing biome.

[Ai Shizuka]

Oh well, thanks. Back to the old boring pigtails.

Sal, the farm is marked as inside - light - above ground. It's 1 level below the surface, has been exposed to sunlight and re-roofed back over. It keeps the 'light' and 'above ground' status.

[Quietust]

All above ground crops need the farm plot to have or have been exposed to the surface. Further I am relatively certain no above ground crops will ever grow in biomes with the FREEZING token. Despite not always being cold Mountains have the FREEZING tag. I remember having a similar issue in a mountain biome and this was the reason I couldn't grow them.

There is not, nor has there ever been, a FREEZING token/tag anywhere in Dwarf Fortress - what you're thinking of is the "NOT_FREEZING" biome group, which is just shorthand for "every above-ground land biome except for MOUNTAIN, GLACIER, and TUNDRA". It doesn't even care about the region's climate, just the biome type.

Specifically, it is 100% equivalent to individually specifying each of the following biomes: SWAMP_TEMPERATE_FRESHWATER, SWAMP_TEMPERATE_SALTWATER, MARSH_TEMPERATE_FRESHWATER, MARSH_TEMPERATE_SALTWATER, SWAMP_TROPICAL_FRESHWATER, SWAMP_TROPICAL_SALTWATER, SWAMP_MANGROVE, MARSH_TROPICAL_FRESHWATER, MARSH_TROPICAL_SALTWATER, FOREST_TAIGA, FOREST_TEMPERATE_CONIFER, FOREST_TEMPERATE_BROADLEAF, FOREST_TROPICAL_CONIFER, FOREST_TROPICAL_DRY_BROADLEAF, FOREST_TROPICAL_MOIST_BROADLEAF, GRASSLAND_TEMPERATE, SAVANNA_TEMPERATE, SHRUBLAND_TEMPERATE, GRASSLAND_TROPICAL, SAVANNA_TROPICAL, SHRUBLAND_TROPICAL, DESERT_BADLAND, DESERT_ROCK, and DESERT_SAND.

[sal880612m]

All above ground crops need the farm plot to have or have been exposed to the surface. Further I am relatively certain no above ground crops will ever grow in biomes with the FREEZING token. Despite not always being cold Mountains have the FREEZING tag. I remember having a similar issue in a mountain biome and this was the reason I couldn't grow them.

There is not, nor has there ever been, a FREEZING token/tag anywhere in Dwarf Fortress - what you're thinking of is the "NOT_FREEZING" biome group, which is just shorthand for "every above-ground land biome except for MOUNTAIN, GLACIER, and TUNDRA". It doesn't even care about the region's climate, just the biome type.

Specifically, it is 100% equivalent to individually specifying each of the following biomes: SWAMP_TEMPERATE_FRESHWATER, SWAMP_TEMPERATE_SALTWATER, MARSH_TEMPERATE_FRESHWATER, MARSH_TEMPERATE_SALTWATER, SWAMP_TROPICAL_FRESHWATER, SWAMP_TROPICAL_SALTWATER, SWAMP_MANGROVE, MARSH_TROPICAL_FRESHWATER, MARSH_TROPICAL_SALTWATER, FOREST_TAIGA, FOREST_TEMPERATE_CONIFER, FOREST_TEMPERATE_BROADLEAF, FOREST_TROPICAL_CONIFER, FOREST_TROPICAL_DRY_BROADLEAF, FOREST_TROPICAL_MOIST_BROADLEAF, GRASSLAND_TEMPERATE, SAVANNA_TEMPERATE, SHRUBLAND_TEMPERATE, GRASSLAND_TROPICAL, SAVANNA_TROPICAL, SHRUBLAND_TROPICAL, DESERT_BADLAND, DESERT_ROCK, and DESERT_SAND.

Saying it was a token/tag was wrong but:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Farming#Above_Ground_Farming
claims mountains as a freezing biome. Or a biome having the same property that prevents plants from growing in other cold biomes. Which is the essence of what I said because if you remove the caps and replace tag/token with property you get basically exactly the same thing it says on the wiki. If you're reactions are meant to educate you could have stopped after biome group. It seems more like you want people to become frustrated and either say nothing out of fear of it not being correct enough or to reach a point of ignoring you all together which is the route I will likely choose.

[Larix]

BTW, what Quietust didn't explicitly say but what was implied in "land biome" - the non-land biomes are also all sterile, notably OCEAN_XXX biomes. If you settle on the sea coast, you cannot farm aboveground plants on the beach. And these can range in temperature from freezing to scorching.

I prefer to talk of "sterile" biomes - "freezing" strongly suggests it's a function of the "freezing" temperature description on the embark screen, which is simply not the case.

[Ai Shizuka]

So tundra that appears as 'cold' instead of 'freezing' on the embark map doesn't work, either?

[Larix]

From what i know, a "cold" tundra should still be as unfarmable as a "freezing" one, since it's the Tundra biome that makes it unusable, not the temperature rating.

I've edited that paragraph in the farming article. Hope it's a bit clearer now. I must say NOT_FREEZING is not exactly the best name choice for that tag when "freezing" is a well-known climate label on the embark screen. Of course, the "biome" article still has a "FREEZING" subsection consisting of mountain, tundra and glacier, but i wasn't gonna tackle that.

[greycat]

I've edited that paragraph in the farming article

Lucky you.  You can actually edit things.

Well, whenever they fix the current Fatal exception of type MWException error for the rest of us, maybe the rest of us can help come up with a better wording.

[GavJ]

I farmed some crops in a freezing biome just fine the other day. Was in a tundra and had all kinds of above ground farms going......

Pretty sure I've farmed on mountains and glaciers too They don't have soil, but you can just muddy the tiles, not a big deal. I did dig out an area and THEN muddy, however, so it's possible that you can't farm literally on the original surface? But ehh... the tundra I farmed on was the actual original surface, so that doesn't seem it.

Are you sure that's not some old bug or something that was changed?



(note I do have dfhack installed, so in case that changes the rules)

[Larix]

I just confirmed in a tundra, after collecting some plants in the adjacent "temperate shrubland"

native surface - "no seeds available for this location"
one level underground, then opened to the sky - "no seeds available for this location"

Planting works both in the "freezing" shrublands and the "cold" rocky wasteland on the same map. Couldn't check for irrigated rock, because it's a flat map with at least two layers of solid aquifer.

You're either misremembering, mistaking rocky wastes for tundra or playing with modded raws or you chanced upon some workaround.

The inability to farm the surface in those biomes is clearly intended in the raws - all surface crops have NOT_FREEZING as biome definition and _should_ not be growable anywhere else. If you can grow aboveground crops on an ocean beach, in mountains, on glaciers or on a tundra, you've found a bug.

[GavJ]

all surface crops have NOT_FREEZING as biome definition

That tag is not where you can grow them. That tag is for where they are FOUND natively.
For example, some other plant might have only, exclusively [BIOME:ANY_DESERT], but if you grab some from a desert and have an overlapping grassland on your embark, you can plant them there. Or if you get seeds from a caravan.

Now, it very well might also be hard-coded as well for the freezing thing. But I'm pretty sure that tag isn't the reason regardless.

I will go download default game raws and no plugins or anything and attempt to replicate.

[Larix]

all surface crops have NOT_FREEZING as biome definition

That tag is not where you can grow them. That tag is for where they are FOUND natively.

Not correct.

Test case bloated tuber: i added a seed definition to its raws and embarked on a map that's partially saltwater marsh, partially savanna. Bloated tuber (and muck root and kobold bulb) has ANY_WETLAND as biome. Marshes are wetland, savannas aren't. I could, expectedly, only gather tubers in the marsh, but i also could only _grow_ them there. A farm plot in the marsh offers bloated tuber as plant to grow, a plot in the savanna doesn't.

The biome setting in the raws of surface plants _does_ determine where a plant can be grown.

[GavJ]

edit: missed the seeds sentence.

Okay, well it must be some dfhack script then. Not misremembering: I did it explicitly to test this and did it in like 4 different ways. Can't think of anything else. I'm not replicating either on the vanilla version, and I never touched those raws (looking at them right now for that world, they are normal).

Anywho, not the concern of people on the vanilla gameplat questions thread, then. And glad to hear you can mod both things at once.