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[Robsoie]

Orbiter got a lot of freedom with its sandbox nature.

It's a rather hardcore and realistic space simulation that is then self-sufficient for those wanting to play/fly with this kind of sim and very likely contribute a lot to the appeal of the game.

The complete lack of defined objectives or mission or similar gives you basically a sandbox the size of the solar system (and more with some addons) to do whatever you want and achieve your self defined goals, while that sounds rather blend as space is full of void, the actual realism gives the whole thing its interest :
Just wanting to reach Mars require a lot to do in the use of the various MFD available to you (stock or addons) to get a correct trajectory, to make corrections etc...
Then once Mars in view, trying to build a good enough orbit

And from there, how about trying to land on a Mars base, or trying to catch a satellite or space station for refuel, or simply doing an EVA and trying to move around your own ship  ?

It's actually quite interesting how a game that does not provide space lasers to shoot things, does not evil space empires duking it out or do not have aliens motherships tearing planets apart etc.. (though i have not followed the addon releases since a lot of time) can keep the player coming back again and again.

Kerbal is not that different, even if the realism takes a second seat, it has other elements to keep the player interest and focus on it

[Neonivek]

I don't know sometimes I think the best sandboxes often give you a minor goal that you can succeed or thrive at.

But where there is something much deeper beneath the surface.

But most Sandboxes are more shallow after you scratch away at the surface, few are any deeper.

[Gatleos]

Just Cause 2 is a good example of a game that I think loses a lot of its appeal once you've done every type of activity. And then you realize you've only completed 30% of the game's "content". It's a simple question of quantity vs. quality, but I think it has a lot to do with how the game presents that content. If you've already gotten a fulfilling experience from the game and then it opens up at the end and says "you can do this repetitive thing for as long as you want", then that's very different than a game copy-pasting the same thing a hundred times over and calling it gameplay from the start.

[nenjin]

That's what I'm getting about with Interactions. Same with GTA. The game is structured to be interacted with in a handful of ways, and then give a ton of open space and called a sandbox. There's usually enough detail to cover everything. Textures, NPC chatter ect...But when your interactions are pretty prescribed: "Hijack an airplane!" "Fly an airplane!" "Do a race!" "Do a rampage!" "Hunt stuff and collect its parts!", it's not really a sim.

A think a big part of it has to do with the lasting impact most games that are open world allow you to have. Everything resets pretty much instantly. Foot traffic. Vehicle traffic. States and modes of alert. Spawns of this that and the other thing.

Like, to be more of a sim, if the population in cities in GTA shifted around based on where the most violence was. So, if a player has been running amok in one little section for an hour, population flees to other parts of the city. Because it starts a chain reaction of interesting effects to observe. What's a small residential district like when it's got 250% more population than intended? What happens when the same scripted police stop and pursuit happens, in a district crammed to the gills with people? What are other missions like when the population is higher?

Good sims have these sorts of trickle down cause and effect relationships scattered throughout the game.

[Tawa]

I see you haven't played Wind Waker.

Why is it worse or better than Twilight Princess in that respect?

I mean don't get me wrong, I like Twilight Princess... but the game would be a significantly shorter if you took out its excessive uneventful travel.

Until you get the bow-- halfway through the game, mind you-- you have to sail over the Great Sea EVERYWHERE.

There's one point where you have to sail from Windfall Island, in the far north, to Outset Island, in the furthest south, to shoot bombs at a cliff, with a slow boat that the S.S. Minnow is at least triple the size of. It's faster than Epona, but the Great Sea is apparently a hundred miles across.

Another point involves Tingle selling you a map for 390-some Rupees to, which lets you find the 8 Triforce Charts, which you have to sail EVERYWHERE to find, which you then must give Tingle 300-some EACH to decipher. You then have to sail EVERYWHERE AGAIN to pull them up from the bottom of the ocean.

[10ebbor10]

Honestly, I quite like sandbox games. But in general, there appear to be 3 kinds of them.

1) Here's a world to explore, Have fun.
2) Here's a storyline to follow, but take your time and explore the surroundings.
3) Our game was 40 hours too short, so here's some scenery to drive through.

The latter is indeed most annoying, when the sandbox aspect is little more than going from one part of the detailed, but annoyingly big map to the other.

Ahh I see you played Twilight Princess

>:|

I see you haven't played Wind Waker.

I have played neither. In fact, I haven't played a single Zelda game.

[scrdest]

That's what I'm getting about with Interactions. Same with GTA. The game is structured to be interacted with in a handful of ways, and then give a ton of open space and called a sandbox. There's usually enough detail to cover everything. Textures, NPC chatter ect...But when your interactions are pretty prescribed: "Hijack an airplane!" "Fly an airplane!" "Do a race!" "Do a rampage!" "Hunt stuff and collect its parts!", it's not really a sim.

A think a big part of it has to do with the lasting impact most games that are open world allow you to have. Everything resets pretty much instantly. Foot traffic. Vehicle traffic. States and modes of alert. Spawns of this that and the other thing.

Like, to be more of a sim, if the population in cities in GTA shifted around based on where the most violence was. So, if a player has been running amok in one little section for an hour, population flees to other parts of the city. Because it starts a chain reaction of interesting effects to observe. What's a small residential district like when it's got 250% more population than intended? What happens when the same scripted police stop and pursuit happens, in a district crammed to the gills with people? What are other missions like when the population is higher?

Good sims have these sorts of trickle down cause and effect relationships scattered throughout the game.

Oh yes, this is my absolute fun-killer in any sandbox. There's no point in doing whatever I want when whatever I do changes absolutely nothing at all.

[Tawa]

Honestly, I quite like sandbox games. But in general, there appear to be 3 kinds of them.

1) Here's a world to explore, Have fun.
2) Here's a storyline to follow, but take your time and explore the surroundings.
3) Our game was 40 hours too short, so here's some scenery to drive through.

The latter is indeed most annoying, when the sandbox aspect is little more than going from one part of the detailed, but annoyingly big map to the other.

Ahh I see you played Twilight Princess

>:|

I see you haven't played Wind Waker.

I have played neither. In fact, I haven't played a single Zelda game.

(*_*) (Provided by Japanese Keyboard)

GO GET ANY FORM OF OCARINA OF TIME (Master Quest, Original, 3D, even ROM if necessary)

ALL THESE GAMES FALL UNDER #2 BY THE WAY

Spoiler: or any of the following other classics and semi-classics (THIS MAKES NO ATTEMPT TO BE OBJECTIONABLE) (click to show/hide)

Top Picks
Link to the Past - SNES, harder to get but easily one of the best SNES games.
Twilight Princess - Wii and easier to get, but has a massive world and the 4th dungeon frankly has horror elements.

Next Best Thing
Link's Awakening, Oracle of Ages/Seasons - Older Game Boy ones. All available on 3DS e-shop; games are classics but shorter than console games.
Wind Waker - My personal favourite, but the sea theme and cel-shading don't fit the rest of the series.
Majora's Mask - A notoriously difficult 3D one. Solid and rather famous, but difficulty and sidequest frequency tend to make it somewhat less enjoyable to a first-timer.
Original - One of the harder ones in the series. Few NPCs and no story, but the original Triforce hunt has an 8-bit charm to it.

Last Picks
Skyward Sword - Uuugh. Hate this thing. Some people love it, but I hated it. The art direction is horribly ugly (everything that moves seems to slightly glow and looks like a kiddie-d up TP), the story involves crazier-ass time travel than OoT, and the WiiMotionPlus HATES being correct about where it's pointing.
Adventure of Link - The second game. The developers tried to cross Zelda, traditional RPGs, and platforming. It ended horribly and mentioning the game to a dedicated fan is the equivalent to walking into a church in session and shouting "I LOVE SATAN".

[Gatleos]

I think that large distances between given objectives and important locations can enhance the atmosphere of a game, and give the player a sense of embarking on a grand adventure rather than walking around in a cramped, glorified level select menu. Wind Waker, on the other hand, is about pressing a button and watching a cutscene of your boat traveling in a straight line for 3-5 minutes.

[Neonivek]

I think that large distances between given objectives and important locations can enhance the atmosphere of a game, and give the player a sense of embarking on a grand adventure rather than walking around in a cramped, glorified level select menu. Wind Waker, on the other hand, is about pressing a button and watching a cutscene of your boat traveling in a straight line for 3-5 minutes.

Ohh I agree. Travel times can provide pacing.

At best it is pacing at worst it is padding.

[nenjin]

That's what I'm getting about with Interactions. Same with GTA. The game is structured to be interacted with in a handful of ways, and then give a ton of open space and called a sandbox. There's usually enough detail to cover everything. Textures, NPC chatter ect...But when your interactions are pretty prescribed: "Hijack an airplane!" "Fly an airplane!" "Do a race!" "Do a rampage!" "Hunt stuff and collect its parts!", it's not really a sim.

A think a big part of it has to do with the lasting impact most games that are open world allow you to have. Everything resets pretty much instantly. Foot traffic. Vehicle traffic. States and modes of alert. Spawns of this that and the other thing.

Like, to be more of a sim, if the population in cities in GTA shifted around based on where the most violence was. So, if a player has been running amok in one little section for an hour, population flees to other parts of the city. Because it starts a chain reaction of interesting effects to observe. What's a small residential district like when it's got 250% more population than intended? What happens when the same scripted police stop and pursuit happens, in a district crammed to the gills with people? What are other missions like when the population is higher?

Good sims have these sorts of trickle down cause and effect relationships scattered throughout the game.

Oh yes, this is my absolute fun-killer in any sandbox. There's no point in doing whatever I want when whatever I do changes absolutely nothing at all.

This was actually the moment Spore as a game completely died for me.

I'd spent probably 20 minutes carefully nuking a planet surface from orbit, terraforming it down to the lava layer. Then I used the tenatacle tool to create these spiny mountains/ridges that all culminated in a swirling pattern at either of the poles.

Then I zoomed out from the planet to see what it looked like as an orbited body, then zoomed back in.

And 90% of it was fucking gone. Most of the lava covered by soil again, and just a few measly ridges with the texture still showing on them. The same story with, for example, terraforming all the land around a capitol city into water so its on an island. Zoom out, zoom back in.....now it's on a landmass again! You're welcome!

Man, fuck that game. I still get mad thinking about it.