Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SealyStar]

I've noticed a lot of concerned college finance threads of late. Here's my contribution to the growing pile. Apologies and probably a prompt lock are in order if I turn out to be incredibly wrong and naïve and sound exactly like the spoiled rich white kid I am.

How much is generally considered the proper proportion of college expenses for parents to pay? I ask this because I would like to know if I am being shortchanged under the guise of "independence". There are a number of facts which I will present as karma plaintiff, without giving my parents an opportunity to present the defense argument.

1. Argumentum ad comparationem: The university in question is the local flagship state school, probably a standard deviation above average cost for public universities but well below a private one. This is interesting because I have several classmates who are going to the same school with more generous parents, and some going to the aforementioned expensive private schools with similar levels of support. I'm not normally one to use peers as a measuring stick, but this has instilled in me a mix of confusion and jealousy.

2. Argumentum ad pecuniam: My family can almost certainly afford to pay at least somewhat more than they intend. This is where the "spoiled rich white kid" thing comes in - I know that the family income is somewhere between $100k and $150k, but nothing specific. On the whole, my father is rather frugal (would it be rude to say "cheap"?) while my mother is less so (my hypothesis as to why is probably sexist). Interestingly, the inverse in true in their willingness to pay for college - dad is willing to pour in more, mom's viewpoint is more like teaching a bird to fly by dropping it out of the nest. I do have, for the record, one younger brother who will be going to college (hopefully - his grades kind of suck right now) in two years, but that shouldn't affect anything here and now.

3. Argumentum ex interrete: Looking it up on the internet, the suggestions from parents, students, and third parties alike for how much parents should pay for their keedz' college varies wildly from "nothing" to "everything and then some". I'm not sure if mine consulted any of these sources, or which ones I can trust

4. De quantitatibus reales: Under their compromise proposal, the parents will pay tuition and fees, and in exchange I am expected to fund what I will call the "not being homeless and starving" part with not much assistance from their rather minimal designated college savings account. In the end, my contribution equates to about $8,000 a year.

5. De penuria negotiorum: I am rather skeptical about the potential of earning that much money through a reasonable amount of work while attending school full-time. Assuming optimistically that I can find something paying $8 an hour, that equates to three hours a day, every day of the year. I'm not sure how many jobs there are that will pay that much over that many hours for someone with pretty much no skills or training. I don't object or consider it above my dignity to work, but I am concerned with whether the opportunity even exists, and whether it will be too much.

6. De possibilitate debiti: If all else fails (assuming I can neither sway my parents nor find an improbably good job), what are Bay12's recommendations on loans? I get that they essentially mean you are now bound to pay X amount of money for life, and that the remaining Y amount increases each year by virtue of interest. Now, the job prospects for the majors I'm interested in suggest above-average probability for employment for about $50k a year fairly shortly after graduating. From my logic, taking out a small-ish loan seems viable, given that an hour then would earn three, four times as much money as an hour now, in effect reducing the overall "time cost" of school by two-thirds.

So, I am looking for two things. One, did I make any serious errors which affect the strength of my reasoning? Two, what are your suggestions for this spoiled rich white kid? Cajole hard, work hard, or loan hard?

[Vector]

Take out loans from your parents (write them up, sign them, etc., agree on a schedule to pay them back) and then take summer internships and work as a tutor. You should be taking summer internships anyhow because it's much harder to get work after college without them. Three hours of work a day is generally reasonable (by which I mean that you could probably do your coursework despite those three hours), especially if you factor in full-time summer work which will lighten the load the rest of the year.

The amount they're asking you to pay is reasonable, but you're right that it may not be possible for you to get work. That's why I recommend not taking out official loans, and rather accepting this amount of money as your responsibility--but asking your parents to help you out in the event that you cannot find work, with the expectation that you will repay them.

[alway]

Yep, what Vector said. Get as many paid internships as you can as soon as you are able (probably after the second year it will become easier to find them, but start applying in the first). At my program at university, you were required to have 9 months of paid internships to graduate with a BS. As a result, the rate of students employed in a field relevant to their studies 6 months after graduation was 98%. As opposed to many other places, where it's more like 70%.

I will also make an emphasis on paid internships. Lately, there have been a ton of cases where people would be hired as unpaid interns, and basically abused by being told to do menial janitorial tasks. Because hey, free labor! Being paid, especially if its above minimum wage, pretty much guarantees that you will be doing relevant work which actually produces value for the company.

[scrdest]

I will also make an emphasis on paid internships. Lately, there have been a ton of cases where people would be hired as unpaid interns, and basically abused by being told to do menial janitorial tasks. Because hey, free labor! Being paid, especially if its above minimum wage, pretty much guarantees that you will be doing relevant work which actually produces value for the company.

Oh man, thanks a ton for this point. I didn't think of that myself, and I'm going to have to start looking for internships sooner or later.

[David Holmes]

+1 for the paid internship comments.  In professional/technical fields, internships often pay $18-$25 an hour, and they are extremely important for getting a job later.  Your mileage may vary of course.  Unfortunately this may not be a short-term solution, since internships are more often in the latter half of the college career.

I took out loans for $18k for school, which I paid back in short order.  It was the right decision for me, since I make much more because of my degree and had no difficulty paying them back.  It could be the wrong decision for others, though, especially if you end up deciding that your chosen career path is actually not for you. There are plenty of people who pile up tons of debt and end up not using their degree.

Also be aware that not all loans are equal.  Mine were federally subsidized and had a very low interest rate.  If your family is well off, you may not qualify for the same loans.  Loans from your parents are definitely good if you can get them.

[SealyStar]

Thanks for the comments so far. I guess I am just a spoiled rich white kid. Still, I appreciate the advice.

I already intended to start looking for internships (paid ones) in future years (not a whole lot of prospects now). There is enough money in that savings account (actually, turned out my parents never saved any money themselves - that's all 18 years of accumulated gifts from two wealthy relatives on my dad's side) I mentioned to cover me for the first year, or two if I really stretched it, but obviously I want a job too, especially because that's gonna be important for the internship part down the road.

Tutoring. I've had that suggested, too. The problem is coordinating it; back in February someone called me to ask about it, and after about half an hour of discussion, they said they'd call me back, and they never did. The other problem is that tutoring for money is difficult because the people who need it most tend to be poor. Concerned parents of wealthy airheads work if you can find them, but I can't.

I suppose I'll talk to my parents about the prospect of loaning from them to cover up underemployment-related shortfalls. I think they'd be open to that if I needed the help.

[Vector]

Put up signs and charge $10-$15/hour. Rich parents can pay someone with a PhD to tutor their kid. You're not going to get much as you start out, but again, that's why it's called "hard work" >_> <_<

[gimlet]

Even if you have to take some semesters/quarters off to work full time, that's not necessarily a horrible thing.  For me:
1) Those jobs were pretty awful, so I appreciated the (relatively) cushy and interesting jobs I got in my field after graduating.
2) The more of my own hard-earned money I personally contributed, the more motivated I was to work hard and not fuck off because "hey, all paid for, no skin off my nose PARTY TIME".

A huge way to save money: look into CLEP tests.  You can test out of a year or more of those classes they make you take to be "well rounded".  Lots of benefits: save maybe a year of tuition, get to work up to a full year earlier, don't waste time re-doing stuff you did in high school.    Double check if/which ones your uni will accept, nearly all do but note the "nearly".  Check with each department, they're their own little fiefdoms.

WARNING:  Those "well rounding" classes are kind of nice to give you a framework and background for other interests than your career.  Still, do you really NEED to sit in a class and pay full tuition for that?  Find a way to do that stuff on your own - book clubs, deep reading, whatever.

MORE SERIOUS WARNING:  Those are the "easier" courses, especially compared to the ton of homework for say engineering or programming courses.  Instead of having a mix of a few hard courses and 1 or 2 "easy" courses where you just need to read the material and write a few papers, you can end up with wall to wall hardass courses - be prepared, don't let this kill you.  Also don't test out of English Comp unless you know you are pretty good already - most college freshmen have pretty awful writing, organizing and composing skills.

Also if you do need to take "remedial classes" - it'll almost always be HUGELY cheaper at a community college.  You can even take some of your low-level courses there - lots of those are huge lecture classes anyway, with everything graded by assistants.   Make sure your uni will accept their credits, and make DOUBLY sure they will accept the credits for whatever specific classes you take.

[i2amroy]

I think a lot of this has to do with the opinions of the parents.

That said here's my parents'/my personal take on it:
Part of being a parent is ensuring that you give your kid at least a reasonable chance of success. In the modern world, that pretty much necessitates that they at least give you a shot at college, and the way my parents handled it is that they basically said "we'll pay for you to go to approximately 4-5 years of college, longer as long as you keep your grades up". They then said that if I were to get any scholarships they wouldn't deduct that amount of time from what they were willing to pay for. As such since I was able to earn enough scholarship money to pay for the first few years, they then agreed to support me if I decided to change my major and needed more school (which I did) or decided to push on for a masters or PhD.

On the topic of working while in college:
In my case I think that working isn't something that should be done unless absolutely needed to help pay for college (internships are an obvious exception, since they help prepare you and teach you what you will actually be doing in your field and provide great resume filler). College is a time when you are supposed to be learning what jobs in your chosen field are like, how to do those jobs, and whether or not that is actually something that you want to do. IMO being required to work at a restaurant or in a retail store somewhere does none of that, and thus shouldn't be required of a college student by their parents (though doing it on their own for some extra spending money is certainly still up in the air).

On the topic of loans:
I'd say try to get them from federal funding prior to getting them from parents. Large amounts of money can very quickly drive a family apart if problems ensue (I've seen it happen to others). If you must get money from your family, it's important that it's viewed as a gift (one that may be repaid in the future, but still a gift at heart) and not as a loan or something that is "deserved". For example my parents joke about how when they get old I'll have to help support putting them in a fancy retirement home, and I have no doubt that one of my personal priorities once I get a job will be to start paying my parents back for all they've done for me in one form or another. That said don't be afraid to ask for money if you need help, but remember that it should always be viewed as a gift, not a loan.

[moocowmoo]

If you haven't already, go to your college's financial aid or advisory office as soon as possible, and find out whatever grants and scholarships are available. Instead of trying to craft an argument to get your parents to pay more, I think you really need to impress them with a plan and vision. Sell yourself as a "good investment" so to speak. If you can show them a concrete vision of what you plan to do and how you plan to tackle it, they might be more willing to spend money on you. If it's just "yeah I want money so I can get a degree" that doesn't give confidence. In order to make a plan, talk to advisers and teachers to get information on what you might want to pursue, and what it realistically takes to get there.

[LordBucket]

did I make any serious errors which affect the strength of my reasoning?

I'll note one in particular: what people on the internet think your parents "should" do has no bearing on what they think they should do.

what are your suggestions for this spoiled rich white kid?

1) Stop whining about what you think is "supposed to" happen and deal with your circumstances.

2) Notice that their compromise solution has a particular quirk that could possibly work to your advantage: You say that they've proposed to pay 'tuition and fees' while you pay 'not being homeless and starving.' Implication being, if you go to a $15,000/yr school or a $50,000/yr school, your payment does not change considerably whereas theirs does. Consequently, if you wanted to manipulate the situation you could arrange to be accepted at a very expensive school, and then after they've seen the $50,000/yr price tag they've already agreed to pay, offer a compromise where you go to a much cheaper school, but they pay your living and eating expenses, and yet they nevertheless pay less. Everybody wins. 'Push the baby bird out of the nest to teach him to fly' might seem less attractive once they realize they can spend tends of thousands of dollars less per year by paying for everything.

what are Bay12's recommendations on loans?

I would advice against starting out life with debt. Life is much easier when you have the option to walk away from bad situations. Don't be the guy who feels compelled to continue working a job he discovered too late that he hates because he locked himself in with debt.

[timferius]

As someone up to their armpits in student debt (family went through a rough patch so I was all loans) and nary a degree to show for it, this is my advice.
1) Make sure post secondary education is what YOU want. There is absolutely NO shame in the trades, and honestly, I wish I had gone in to a trade now.
2) Having your tuition payed for you is amazing, and I agree with others here, do whatever you can to avoid loans. They suck, I'm going to be paying mine back for years to come.
3) don't shake your head at taking a year or two off. Work, make money, grow. I went in to post secondary not knowing myself or what I really wanted, and I burnt out half way. Now I have a life and family and responsibilities, and my only regret is not taking a bit of time after high-school to find myself.

[LordBucket]

There is absolutely NO shame in the trades, and honestly, I wish I had gone in to a trade now.

Having difficulty finding statistics that are consistent. Different sources seem to claim wildly different numbers. But, hunting around looking for averages, average cost of a 4 year degree for a state resident at a public looks to be about $35,000. Some sources claim the average is as low as $26,000, but it's possible that might be tuition only. Whereas the average trade school...most source seem to agree it's in the $30,000 range. So, costs are comparable, but your circumstances may vary. I note that a lot of articles promoting the value of trade school seem to like claiming that the average bachelor's degree costs ~$125,000, which doesn't seem to be corroborated by anyone who isn't trying to promote trade schools over college.

As for income, most site seem to agree the average bachelor's degree holder make about $45,000/yr. For vocational schools, I'm seeing "average income" numbers that range from as low as $30,000 to as high as $42,000. If we arbitrarily pick the middle of that range, $36,000/yr...

Would you rather:

 * spend an average of $35,000 for four years of school in order to make an average of $45,000/yr
 * Spend an average of $30,000 for two years of school in order to make an average of $36,000/yr

At first glance, college looks to be the better deal, but:

 * the guy making $36,000/yr starts working two years sooner than the guy making $45,000/yr. It would take the college graduate eight years to catch up and break even on that head start.
 * 40% of people who start college drop out.
 * Unemployment rates appear to be higher for college graduates than trade school graduates, and significant portions of employed college graduates are employed in minimum wage jobs. It would be fairly awful to accrue the debt, spend two years more and not be able to get a job at all, or to get a job and be making less than the guy who started working at mcdonald's four years ago and now has work experience.
 * On the other hand, that $45,000/yr figure presumably includes the people making minimum wage, and a lot of those probably chose stupid majors. So if you're not majoring in art appreciation or archeology or something, it might be reasonable to expect to get higher than that average.

Unfortunately this is probably a case where in the time it would take to get a degree, economic conditions might well change. What might seem a very safe and dependable choice now might not be two or four years from now.

I think, again, my advice would be...whatever you do, don't accrue debt. Make choices that suit your situation, but be prepared for the possibility that whatever you do, it might turn out to have been a bad choice due entirely to circumstances out of your control.

Another option: you could skip the whole college/tradeschool experience altogether and simply spend a couple hundred dollars to get a forklift cert, guard card, A+ or some other random certification and get a job immediately that pays $25,000/yr or so. I realize that must not seem very exciting compared to the $36,000 to $45,000/yr figures listed above, but no risk, no debt, and four years worth of work experience and raises by the time the guy with a degree has to start looking for a job to pay off his ten+ years worth of debt and interest.

As usual, this is your life, not ours, and you're the one who has to live with the consequences of your decisions, not us. Due diligence is advised.