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[WanderingKid]

You could make goblins cower in terror as the non-magma floor space of a room slowly shrinks around them... I don't really know what you mean with a "magma dumper", WanderingKid?

Sorry, an idea I toyed with, particularly to defend cavern 3 which was close to the sea.  Entryway had a series of pressure plates (magma proof) in a ditch.  Hit plate, open a mass of trapdoors that dumped a 20x5 area of magma across the ditch at once.  I was thinking of something similar with carts going above dropping magma down, but the pathing would fail.

Many people shun cage traps (or at leads corridors full of them) because they are perceived as overeffective and take some of the challenge.

Guilty.

OTOH, many people are fine with using dfhack features if they are seen as 'fixing' some bug such as ghostly merchants and hospital overstocking.

Also guilty. 

Personally, I think many of the minecart designs I see people proposing are great feats of dwarven engineering. Solving the riddle of "an effective minecart grinder without impulse ramps" is another interesting engineering challenge. And frankly, if that makes the system less invulnerable/automatic, I would see that as a good thing in most fortresses, just another source of fun to be had.

Okay, I can see that.  However, in my preference and opinion, the amount of work (planning, knowledge, labor, etc) required for a minecart grinder system that doesn't use impulse ramps in some fashion doesn't have a high enough ROI, considering the alternatives.  A grinder that uses rollers is more open to building destroyer work as, say, automated spike traps, or a series of weapon traps.  Those trap types have far less limitations on design and require a lot less infrastructure.

Vanatteveldt hit the nail on the head in terms of my mindset.

I think based on the feedback from this thread and info from the wiki, I am ready to do a !Science! and put a new design into practice to see if it works. If it does, I will share my results here. If anything, it will encourage me to learn both minecarts AND machinery/power...both of which I've been avoiding up until now.

Ah, that is a completely different story then building a perfect trap!  Much knowledge and joy to you.    If you have questions or run into trouble spots (or some strange quirk that just doesn't make sense) post up here and I'm sure most of us will be happy to help you get past the hurdle.

[Urist Da Vinci]

...
10. Is it possible to put living non-dwarf passengers in carts (Cats? Captured goblins?)

Yes. If you want to shoot them at people, you have to:
1. Put the creature in a cage.
2. Put the cage in a cart.
3. Fire the cart in a device such that you "shotgun" the cage from the cart.
4. Have the cage hit a wall such that the creature(s) is(are) "shotgunned" out of the cage and over the wall.

Something I did: Long range puppy artillery

[Pinstar]

I do have a question on the machinery side of things


R
GR
R

R=Roller
G=Gear assembly (powered via axel from below)

If I feed enough power into this one gearbox, will it operate all three sets of rollers? Will all three rollers all send the carts in the direction I want them to (In this case, to the right) if I tell them to go that way upon placement?

If a minecart is traveling left towards the middle roller, will it immediately switch direction upon hitting the right-facing roller? What happens if that roller isn't powered? Will it hit and break the gear assembly or just bounce off it (Or go through it?)

[WanderingKid]

If I feed enough power into this one gearbox, will it operate all three sets of rollers? Will all three rollers all send the carts in the direction I want them to (In this case, to the right) if I tell them to go that way upon placement?

Yes, they should.

If a minecart is traveling left towards the middle roller, will it immediately switch direction upon hitting the right-facing roller? What happens if that roller isn't powered? Will it hit and break the gear assembly or just bounce off it (Or go through it?)

It should reverse immediately assuming it's on tracks, derailed carts act differently, but should be the same in this case as it's not sideways momentum.  My experience with unpowered rollers is that they act exactly like highest friction track stops.

[Larix]

You must be misremembering, unpowered rollers behave like ordinary floor/track. The cart will go over them without slowing down. Carts will also go right past most buildings that don't block path - gear assemblies, axles but also installed furniture like armour stands are passed without issue.

I'm pretty certain that rollers _must_ be placed on track (engraved or built; track ramps also qualify) to have any effect on carts.

[WanderingKid]

You must be misremembering, unpowered rollers behave like ordinary floor/track. The cart will go over them without slowing down. Carts will also go right past most buildings that don't block path - gear assemblies, axles but also installed furniture like armour stands are passed without issue.

... I'll doublecheck myself when I get some time.  I'd have sworn....

[Pinstar]

Hmm darn, there goes that idea. I guess I'll have to stick with the more power-hungry version. I wish gearboxes didn't eat so much power.


I've got more questions as I'm trying to do some subterranian machinery setup and am running into problems.


Z+2       W
Z+1       ||
Z          ||
Z-1 __R_G

W=Windmill
||=Vertical Axle
G= Desired Gearbox Placement
R=Ramp into a channeled out ditch

I can place the windmill fine, I can place the vertical axles fine, and I KNOW dwarfs can get in and out of that channeled z-1 ditch via that ramp, but when I go to try and place a gearbox in the G location, it says there is no route to any mechanisms. This is not true as the ramp leads to my main fort area which has access to my stockpile of mechanisms and there are PLENTY of mechanisms available. Why does it say it can't reach one? I need to build this horizontal shaft in a z-1 ditch so it can go under one of my constructed walls. (I'll be covering it with flooring after construction is completed so it isn't used by siegers to get around my walls).

I do not have any burrows defined or used, and none of the mechanisms are forbidden.

[jcochran]

I can place the windmill fine, I can place the vertical axles fine, and I KNOW dwarfs can get in and out of that channeled z-1 ditch via that ramp, but when I go to try and place a gearbox in the G location, it says there is no route to any mechanisms. This is not true as the ramp leads to my main fort area which has access to my stockpile of mechanisms and there are PLENTY of mechanisms available. Why does it say it can't reach one? I need to build this horizontal shaft in a z-1 ditch so it can go under one of my constructed walls. (I'll be covering it with flooring after construction is completed so it isn't used by siegers to get around my walls).

I do not have any burrows defined or used, and none of the mechanisms are forbidden.

Then you are mistaken. Given that it's saying "no route to any mechanisms", I'd say that you've accidentally isolated the spot where you want to place the gearbox. What I'd suggest doing is figuring out where you've done that. A fairly easy easy way is to start to build a gear assembly and move the cursor from where you actually want it towards where the mechanisms are along the path you expect the dwarves to carry the mechanism. At some point the error message should disappear and you can then look closely at that area to see what's blocking access.

[Pinstar]

I will try that.

I've got another question related to my project...and supports.


WWR====
W RGs====
WWR====

W: Wall
R: Roller
G: Gear Assembly on top of track
s: Support on top of track
=: Track

One Z level on top of all this,with the center tile directly over the gear assembly, is a windmill.

Will I be able to build a windmill with this setup?
If I link the gear assembly to a lever and trigger it to "disengage" (and thus cut power to the rollers) will this cause the windmill itself to collapse?
Can the gear assembly and support be built on top of constructed track? If not, will a minecart that starts on the rear roller make it to the tracks without losing too much speed (assuming the rollers are set to max speed)? Just found on the wiki that they can.

[EvilBob22]

Z+2       W
Z+1       ||
Z          ||
Z-1 __R_G

W=Windmill
||=Vertical Axle
G= Desired Gearbox Placement
R=Ramp into a channeled out ditch

I can place the windmill fine, I can place the vertical axles fine, and I KNOW dwarfs can get in and out of that channeled z-1 ditch via that ramp, but when I go to try and place a gearbox in the G location, it says there is no route to any mechanisms. This is not true as the ramp leads to my main fort area which has access to my stockpile of mechanisms and there are PLENTY of mechanisms available. Why does it say it can't reach one? I need to build this horizontal shaft in a z-1 ditch so it can go under one of my constructed walls. (I'll be covering it with flooring after construction is completed so it isn't used by siegers to get around my walls).

I do not have any burrows defined or used, and none of the mechanisms are forbidden.

Is the wall to the right of the ramp still there?  I've messed myself up before by having a perfectly fine ramp in one direction, but only one direction.

Z + 1     ____   ____
Z               W^

_ = floor
W = wall
^ = up ramp

In a setup like this, you can go left, but not right.  And if there is another wall at Z + 1 above the first, the the whole thing is unusable.

[Larix]

What's the purpose of the support? A windmill needs to be supported only in one place, at the centre tile. The support isn't needed to hold up the windmill.

If you want to run rollers from the windmill, you must use a gear assembly to support it. You cannot switch power via the supporting gear assembly itself, that'll cause the windmill to deconstruct. You have to either put another gear assembly between the 'holding' gearbox and the rollers _or_ attach switchable 'load' to the rollers, so you can switch the machine off by overtaxing the system. E.g. if you have 20 power from the windmill, you can run a gearbox and seven rollers off it - that costs 19 power; when you attach another gear assembly to the system, that will increase the power consumption to 24, bringing the entire system to a stop; but if you switch that 'load' assembly off, it will no longer require power and the rollers will start up again.

When trying to smash foes with speeding minecarts, it's really necessary to build a construction that can hit a target repeatedly. A minecart hit will easily break bones, but to actually kill you can easily need a dozen or more hits.

I was feeling rather vindictive after an axegobbo squad uncloaked right on top of a hauler, so released four captured hammerers on the wrong side of my minecart curtain. The basic construction is breathtakingly simple:

Code: [Select]

WRRRRRRW
W||||||W
W||||||W
.||||||
.||||||
W||||||W
W||||||W
WRRRRRRW

'R'ollers in the north push south, the southern rollers push north. 'W'alls to limit access to the rollers themselves (in case building destroyers happen to my fort - to get into disassembling range, they have to step on the track). Each roller pair bounces one cart back and forth between them when active. When the rollers are switched off, carts stop on the nearest roller. With six roller pairs (and minecarts), that's a mere 24 power to run. I'm consuming 105 power total, so the most is actually spent generating and transporting it.

The quickest goblins managed to reach the second track, with no hope of actually passing all six. All carts are made of metal, ranging from nickel silver to gold. A dozen hits are generally enough to cause lethal damage - either a brain bash or disruption of the upper spinal chord (guaranteed suffocation for breathing units). It appears to be brutally effective against anything goblin-sized, but i don't have larger stuff on hand to test how it fares against, say, horses or trolls.

As an aside: the 'machinery freezes in cold climes' rule seems to be restricted to contact with natural ice floors. The machinery works without trouble on _built_ ice floors, but once any 'frozen here' item was included in the drive train, things get strange. Removing and rebuilding the frozen item doesn't restore mobility, the train will still list as 'frozen elsewhere' until you destroy/disengage a _non-frozen_ construction; however, doing so can restore mobility to 'frozen here' items, i.e. stuff that's actually sitting on a natural ice floor and should remain frozen.

[Pinstar]

I was hoping the invisible support given by the suport in all four directions would hold up the windmill when disengaging the gear assembly.

So would this work?

WWR======
W RGG======
WWR======

With the windmill sitting on the rightmost gearbox, but the disengaging lever linked to the left gearbox to turn the system off.

As you said, I know it takes many hits to kill with a minecart, this system would be mirrored on the other side by the exact same setup to send the carts back the other direction. The pairs could then be duplicated down a long corridor. All this is being setup outdoors and I've got 20 wind power winds in my embark, so each 3-cart station has enough juice to be powered by its own local windmill, thus avoiding having to run large networks of power-hungry axles.

The Finished product would look like this. The |   | is a 3 tile wide section of flat road, meant to be caravan-passable.
My embark lacks any kind of weapons-grade metal, but has plenty of lead, of which I'll be making minecarts.
All the Gear assemblies would be linked to a single lever, which I could turn on for sieges and off to let caravans pass safely as well as let my dwarfs collect the goblinite left over.

WWR======|   |=====RWW
W RGG=====|   |====GGR W
WWR======|   |=====RWW

[Larix]

That looks fine. The road tiles will slow the cart down a (pretty small) bit, but at highest speed and with metal minecarts, it shouldn't lose efficiency. If you're worried about building destroyers which are likely to appear when you get sieges, you could build 'curtain walls' to restrict access to the rollers and gears.

You can build the rollers so that only one actually touches the gear assembly: rollers can transmit power, and 1x1 rollers will transmit power in all four cardinal directions. You could build a line of five rollers, one of them contacting the switchable gear assembly

Code: [Select]

R===
R===
RGG=
R===
R===
and they'd all work; and 20 power would be just enough for two gearboxes and five one-tile rollers. Mind, three tracks should be enough for most purposes, but a bit of overkill doesn't hurt.

[Pinstar]

Ooooh I didn't know rollers transferred power to each other. That makes things much more efficient.

As far as overkill is concerned, I was going to line my whole approach to my front entrance with this, which would be about 30 tiles long. I figure some redundancies would be good in case a building destroyer gets lucky and makes it to one of my assemblies.

Plus, going overboard is the only proper dwarfy way to do this.

Thank you all for the advice! I'll post the final results of this once I have it setup.

[Dwarf4Explosives]

How about setting up a system so the entire track, a circular one that goes down one or two z-levels, changes direction and goes back up again, is covered in rollers? With a floodgate or similar to stop the carnage, you can have a semi-permanently active mincecart minecart smasher protecting your fortress gate.