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[weenog]

Time at my job lately has been soul-crushingly irritating.  I get $10.75/hour to be a line cook, customer service representative, accountant, janitor, and babysitter, essentially.  The job does offer some benefits I enjoy, and I don't mind the work, it's largely my irresponsible coworkers making me dread going in.  Last night one of them picked a fight and stormed out of the shop over the easiest side item on the menu to prepare, just to avoid having to clean up the makeline when we closed.

A competitor extended a tentative offer to start me at $12/hour, the benefits are reduced but so is the childish bullshit.  I mentioned the better paying job opportunity to my boss yesterday afternoon and he said he would match it starting next paycheck.  So that's a decent little raise there; it'll be worth more after December when I can get in on the employee payroll deduction stock purchase plan: buy company stock (I already buy it anyway, it's one of my top 3 performers, up nearly 20% since April and it pays dividends) at a 15% discount.

Yesterday evening I became so frustrated with my coworkers that the only thing that kept me from storming off also was my sense of responsibility, and knowing that nothing would get done if the only full-time insider available (and the only one that knows how to do all of the job) left early.  I don't even care about the raise anymore, I want out of this situation.  On the other hand, I don't want to burn bridges, nor seem ungrateful, particularly to a man that gave me a chance when I was unemployed, broke, and inadvertently outed as a hobo during the job interview.  I'd still be a hobo if not for this job.

I'm looking for a way to take the other job, put in my two weeks' notice with this one, and refuse all negotiation to try to retain me, without coming across insulting or as an ingrate.  I don't think my people skills are up to the task.  Bay12, I turn to you for advice.

[XXSockXX]

I'd probably be pretty honest and open about it. Explain to your boss that you're grateful and would like to stay out of loyality to him, but just can't tolerate your co-workers' behaviour anymore. Tell him pretty much what you wrote here, that you feel bad about leaving, but see no other choice.
At best he will understand it and let you go on good terms. Or he might offer to make some changes (if that is possible in the company, like giving you another position or something). At worst he won't understand it, but that is still better than just leaving without an explanation.

[Truean]

All I can say is, I put up with a LOT of horseshit at my job....

Here's a reason you might actually not wanna leave: no real competition = advancement.

The question you have to ask yourself is, "is my boss a decent human being?" It sounds like yes...? The fact that your boss has already given you a raise in this godforsaken economy is huge. When things gets better, and he knows you stuck by him during the crap times, he'll remember it if he's a decent human being (which it sounds like he is given your post above. Am I misreading this?). Security in this terrible time is valuable and it doesn't sound like this guy wants to loose you.

Maybe, like me, you have a problem dealing with immature people, like the ones you are working with. That's 99% of who I work with, whining, snot nosed somehow-considered-adult-and-tragically-often-a-parent morons. They never do anything they tell me they will even when not doing so will hurt them (sometimes terribly) and blame everybody around them (including me) for all their crap. The thing about that (whether or not you stay or go from this job) is there are too many morons like that in the world to avoid, no matter who you are. I liken dealing with stupid people to stepping in dog shit it happened and that sucks, I can either stand there cussing or I can scrape it off my shoe and keep on going. The shit doesn't care that I'm cussing and screaming at it....

If you really do have to leave, and maybe you do, then explain in short, sweet, honest, non-blaming statements why, but be VERY careful in doing this, because I'm betting the guy will take it badly. He hired you when you had nothing. I don't blame you one bit for trying to improve your situation and I encourage you to. Hell, I'm cheering for you. Just be careful and that there is no good way to quit a place because your co workers are assholes. Bosses tend not to take that well, because the boss is the one who hired them....

Whatever happens, I wish you the absolute best of luck.

[gimlet]

A couple of things - are you SURE the other job is such a huge amount better?   I bet there's a ton of annoyances that you just don't know about, the "grass is greener" syndrome.  (Although I always found any new job was tolerable for a couple of months no matter how much it actually sucked, just because of the change.)

And what about asking for MORE responsibility?  Like a promotion to a manager that can hire and fire, so you can get rid of the really unredeemable morons and replace them with less disruptive workers.  Usually once you get rid of the main troublemakers and the rest see concrete proof that acting like idiots will have consequences, the whole environment improves a huge amount.    Now this is a whole nother level of hassle and pain, but
1) It's GREAT experience for if/when you become a manager or start a business
2) You help out the business (or at least your boss) who does seem to be a decent guy

If that's not an immediate possibility, make the case to him who should be fired immediately, and why.  If he hates to fire people offer to do it, fill in all the paperwork, etc, so it's as painless for him as possible.   And also work out a strategy for where and how to find better employees, offer to put up flyers, handle the responses, do the initial interviews, etc.   Actively recruit good workers from other restaurants.   Find out what HIS bosses rate him on, (usually cost and profit) and figure out ways to help him improve those things - like by firing non-performers and hiring better workers, scheduling better, working out better procedures, whatever.

[weenog]

I've been over all of that with him, gimlet, and it's gotten me nowhere.

I think he's not so much altruistic as he is careless.  Would fit with something one of my better coworkers said last night.  The worker said, "The problem is, you care.  We don't.  If they ever did tighten up ship around here, we'd all just walk out. [Owner] used to be the same way, he was one of us, that's why he's hired so many people like us on.  Now that he owns the place, he kind of has to care, but he doesn't like it, and does as little as possible."  I'm still grateful to him for giving me an opportunity, but I don't think it was charity.

The reports I'm getting from the other place, and the reason I'm being offered the job, are from a former coworker that quit here and found work elsewhere.  The environment where I work and he used to work is just too toxic for him (psychologically), he thinks it's not a good fit for me either.  We've talked quite a bit about his new workplace, though there are some faults it sounds pretty good, he's happy with it, he was miserable before.  And he's been talking with his superiors about me, they like what they're hearing, so they're asking me to come see about working for them.

I'll be going in to speak with them on Monday, though if they're asking for me specifically and they want to put me directly into a manager slot rather than working my way up from grunt, the interview is probably mostly a formality.  I haven't decided yet whether I'll take the job, though I'm leaning that way pretty strongly.  And I'm still not sure what the heck I'm going to say to my current boss if I do take the new job.

[Truean]

"they want to put me directly into a manager slot"

I know there was an "if" in there, but ... that's a good reason to leave a current job....

[Knight of Fools]

More pay, more opportunities, and better environment are all good reasons to quit a job. Keep in mind that quitting a job just because you didn't like it usually doesn't go over too well - For a while I had a hard time explaining why I quit a job to prospective employers, and I lost a lot of job opportunities because they saw it as impulsive. It wasn't, but I hadn't thought real deeply about all the things that had built up to make me leave before I had even found a new job, so it was hard to explain when someone asked me about it.

Looks like you're thinking ahead more than I did, though, so that's good. Just be sure your reasons are solid enough to keep you competitive in the job market. Future employers will ask about it.


But yeah - Be honest with your boss. Tell him what's up, and stress that you do want to keep your current job because of the benefits, but between the poor work environment and the lack of opportunities* you can't think of any reason to stay. Tell him that this new opportunity is here and you won't get anywhere in life if you don't move on. If he asks about the pay raise he gave you, tell him something he should already know: Never say "no" to more money. An extra $1.25 an hour is $25 - $50 extra per week, which is quite a bit for most people.

Try not to be rude, but be blunt. Maybe he'll start to see that he's screwed something up and needs to fix it. Worse comes to worse, things stay the way they are and the boss will hate you for leaving - But who cares if you're in a more comfortable position far away from his influence? He's screwed things up, and he'll have to deal with the consequences of not cleaning house. One of those consequences is losing the few good employees he manages to get his hands on. You've done your part, so if you think it's time to abandon ship then it may very well be the best thing to do.

Part of being successful is taking opportunities when they come. All you have to do is decide whether this is an opportunity or a disaster in disguise.



*Say this even if the other job doesn't have better opportunities for promotion. It's something he can relate to, probably, and it's a solid reason to change jobs so there's fewer reasons for him to hold it against you. It's also true, since your current job doesn't have a lot of opportunities for promotion.

[Sergius]

Just tell your boss that they're offering you more than they actually are.

Now that he matched the actual amount, say they offered even more.

Heck, if you WERE counting on staying as a possibility (which you aren't) it's usually better not to tell them the actual amount you're leaving for but inflate it a bit more. If they "match" it you're better off

[GlyphGryph]

I'd say take the opportunity. Let your boss know it's that that you dislike him or his company, it's that you see an opportunity for advancement and moving up and it's time to move on. Honestly I doubt he's going to give you a lot of trouble over it.

The 15% stock discount is nothing (and you really shouldn't be buying so much stock in your own company anyway) >_> compared to the benefits of actually getting into the management track. If you do well there, you will either quickly be earning more than the 15% stock value or quickly be able to use it as a jumping off point for future gains.

[weenog]

What's "so much" stock?  My company is one of 9 securities I currently hold, and only accounts for 8.86% of my portfolio (including overlap from a mutual fund that includes it and many other things).

[GlyphGryph]

Ah, sorry, I misinterpreted. It sounded like it was a significant chunk. That's fine.

Still, how valuable is the 15% discount actually likely to be?

[weenog]

Fairly valuable.  Even just a few dollars can add up substantially with compounding, over a 20 or 30 year time frame.

Still, I think my mental health is worth more than quite a lot of money.

[GlyphGryph]

Fairly valuable.  Even just a few dollars can add up substantially with compounding, over a 20 or 30 year time frame.

Well, yes. But it's also conceivably significantly less valuable than, say, a 5% pay raise, which would allow you to buy the same amount of additional stock as the discount would while giving you more money left over to buy either more stock or pursue more valuable opportunities.

Example:
Imagine half of your disposable income goes to purchasing stocks, and your net income is $900 a month with your fixed costs (apartment, food, bills) running around $700, giving you about two hundred dollars of play for various things. So we start with $100 dollars being spent on company stock. Lets say the stock is a dollar a piece to keep it simple, so you get a hundred shares.

A 15% discount puts the price at 85 cents apiece. This means you get 117 shares thanks to the discount. Nice!

No, imagine instead that you were offered a 3% pay raise (at a rate of $12/hour, this is equivalent to about 36 cents). This equates to an extra 27 dollars a month. Now, suddenly, you have 117 shares AND $10 left over (or 127 shares)

So it's clear that in this situation at least, a 15% discount is worth significantly less than a 36 cent raise.

When I ask "how much is a 15% discount actually worth", what I mean is "If you do the math, how much are you actually benefitting?"

Since a 50% discount is pretty standard in my own industry and even that ends up not being worth it for the tradeoffs, I'm assuming the answer is something along the lines of "not much" - especially since you aren't exactly receiving a sure thing in return, but only a possibility of improvement, and the discount only applies to this one particular stock.

[weenog]

About $15/month if I don't work much overtime (I prefer to, but I've been taking it easy lately) and don't overload on my company's stock, which I don't want to do.  That's assuming staying at the $12/hour, the stock staying put, and ignoring the dividends completely instead of doing the extra math (and future prediction) to account for reinvesting them.

[GlyphGryph]

The dividends don't really matter, because we're getting the immediate value to find the opportunity cost. It's assumed that whether you get, say, .36 more cents or a 15% discount there will be a point where the cent benefit will counteract the discount benefit by allowing you to buy more stocks (or pursue other avenues with higher reward) so the dividends never actually come into play.

It's a multiplayer that effectively applies to every dollar no matter WHERE it comes from, so it can safely be ignored.

So anyway, the stock plan raises your effective wage by about ten cents, so do with that information what you will.