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[StoneToad]

I especially designed this for a minecart in wheelbarrow magma transport system, so you can get magma workshops really early without having to setup a bunch of power reactors.

The key to the system is keeping the magma level low on the exit impulse ramps so they can accelerate the minecart out of the trench without excessive friction, but still have the magma level high where you're trying to load the cart.

Side View
s.
w......._
wbRpRdRRw

Top View of trench layer
wwwMwwwww
wwwpwwwww
wbRpRdRRw
wwwwwwXXw
wwwwwwXXw
wwwwwwwww

Legend:
s - track stop
b - retracting bridge over impulse ramp
R - impulse ramp
p - pressure plates
d - door
w - wall
X - raising bridge, into wall
. - open space
M - magma

Hopefully the bad ascii art is clear enough. The working bits are: a pressure plate set to 7/7 magma (top one) to trigger the retracting bridge, to launch minecarts.  The pressure plate set to open the door when a minecart goes through, and a drawbridge connected to the same plate to get rid of extra magma. The one space gap is critical, when I had the pressure plate next to the door the minecarts just stopped.

The minecarts will make a quantum stack just next to the minecart stop if the magma is not full.  When testing with 4 minecarts in a situation where they all end up stacked, they all to exit properly, however only 3 of them got filled.  Make sure you have enough room store your minecarts after the exit so they dont back up into the lava.   

In practice, you'll want the filled minecarts to end up sitting on a stockpile, so you can use give/take orders to get them where you want (be sure to use wheelbarrows in the taking piles!!)  the easiest way to dump these minecarts is to setup 2 track stops right next to each other, both with dumping orders, and 2 stockpiles, one next to the first stop set to only take from links and use wheelbarrows, and one next to the 2nd stop.  Setup a route with a stop on the first stop, set to take from the first stop's link only pile.  When a filled minecart is delivered, it will be placed into the route's (wood ok!) minecart and dumped right away onto  the second stop, which will dump the magma out!  Then a dwarf will show up and place the minecart into the 2nd pile's stockpile, since it's the closest matching stockpile.  Then send the cart back down to the depths! 

It would also be fairly straight forward to setup an automated system, if you make the first stop dump onto an impulse ramp, and use a lowest friction stop for the magma dumping.  Then route the track to a dropshaft to load them back into the magma loader, would only need dwarfs for the upwards route.  You could even setup pressure plates to sense the magma level and turn off the magma dumping track stops to have a multi point distribution system.  But that's not really on the topic of no power magma loading is it?

I'm going to see if I can make one using the "Moses effect" to clear the lifting ramp that will work with (intermittent) dwarf power, for a simpler starter system. It didn't work very well.

[laularukyrumo]

Please tell me this actually works. I remember briefly seeing that someone had said impulse ramps didn't work so well for minecart lava retrieval due to the fact that there is a lower limit on speed required to go up a ramp, and an upper limit on the speed a minecart can be traveling at in order to still collect any magma at all, and that there was no overlap between the two ranges.

[Button]

Huh, I didn't know about magma minecart wheelbarrow transport.

Though I have to wonder, if you're using wheelbarrows to bring the minecarts up after filling, why do you even need to use an impulse ramp to get them out of the trench? You could just as easily drop them down through a hole in the floor of the trench, and then drain the magma.

...Actually, if you drop the minecart through the floor of the trench and drain the magma, you could resume completely automated minecart behavior using open-air physics!!

Side view:

Code: [Select]

\        WWWWWWWWWWWWW
W\77777^_WWWWWWWWWWWWW < This pressure plate triggers the bridge when a minecart rolls over it, dumping cart.
W      F\__^..././././ < This pressure plate triggers its bridge when a minecart rolls over it, dumping excess magma.
...................... < This is magma disposal - evap chamber, or pipe to edge of map, or resevoir from which it can be pumped back to the trough
\ = slope, W = wall, ^ = pressure plate, F = fortification, _ = bridge

The trench would partially drain on every fill-up, but refills should be easy to automate.

[Suoli]

There is a much easier, tested way to do this. All you need to get a minecart out of the magma trench is another minecart.

Sideview:

Code: [Select]

_2
   \      >___
    |>>>1/

_ = track
> = impulse ramp
1,2 = minecarts

First, you push minecart 1 into the trench. It will fill, move up to the exit ramp and stop in the trench due to friction. Next, you push minecart 2 in. It will fill, move up to the exit ramp, push the first minecart out with it's momentum and stop where minecart 1 used to be. Minecart 1 will climb up and head where ever you want it to go.

There's no spillage because the collision of the two carts is so slow in magma and the minecart comes out at a very slow and manageable speed. For automated systems, dropping carts in through a pit seems more reliable than using slopes, as the latter might accelerate the cart too much and cause it to skip accross the magma trench.

[Suoli]

Please tell me this actually works. I remember briefly seeing that someone had said impulse ramps didn't work so well for minecart lava retrieval due to the fact that there is a lower limit on speed required to go up a ramp, and an upper limit on the speed a minecart can be traveling at in order to still collect any magma at all, and that there was no overlap between the two ranges.

According to my own experiments, if you drop the minecart straight down instead of rolling it down a ramp it will hit the magma trench with zero lateral velocity, allowing it to fill up before the impulse ramps move it along.

[StoneToad]

Please tell me this actually works. I remember briefly seeing that someone had said impulse ramps didn't work so well for minecart lava retrieval due to the fact that there is a lower limit on speed required to go up a ramp, and an upper limit on the speed a minecart can be traveling at in order to still collect any magma at all, and that there was no overlap between the two ranges.

I have actually built it, the original setup was much simpler (fewer magma-safe mechanisms) but would jamb if too many carts got dumped in quickly.

There isn't actually a upper limit on speed to collect magma as such, the cart must be immersed in 6/7 magma to pickup magma.  The problem is that if the cart is going too fast it will bounce across the top of the magma instead of sinking into it.  This limits the ability to preaccelerate  carts, though you just gave me an interesting idea to try out.

The other problem is that 7/7 magma has a HUGE amount of friction (60000 + regular tile friction to be exact, for comparison a highest friction track stop is 50000)
But 1/7 magma has no (extra) friction, and 2/7 magma is only 10000, the same as a high friction track stop.

data from http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=112831.msg3536975#msg3536975

There is a much easier, tested way to do this. All you need to get a minecart out of the magma trench is another minecart.

Sideview:

Code: [Select]


_2
   \      >___
    |>>>1/

_ = track
> = impulse ramp
1,2 = minecarts

First, you push minecart 1 into the trench. It will fill, move up to the exit ramp and stop in the trench due to friction. Next, you push minecart 2 in. It will fill, move up to the exit ramp, push the first minecart out with it's momentum and stop where minecart 1 used to be. Minecart 1 will climb up and head where ever you want it to go.

There's no spillage because the collision of the two carts is so slow in magma and the minecart comes out at a very slow and manageable speed. For automated systems, dropping carts in through a pit seems more reliable than using slopes, as the latter might accelerate the cart too much and cause it to skip accross the magma trench.

When I  tested a newton's cradle setup I ended up with multiple minecarts stuck in the lava if several of them got dumped in too quickly.  It's possible my problem was related to an unfilled cart hitting a filled cart.  Minecart momentum has some weird quirks.

Of course the absolute easiest method, if you don't mind doing most of it manually, is to just drop 2 minecarts into a trench of magma, then dump water on it from the floor above, then dig out the obsidian.  2 carts worth of magma is enough for a magma forge (4/7 magma).

[gchristopher]

This looks really interesting! What's the peak speed, ticks per cart sent through?

Minecart momentum has some weird quirks.

Hahahahaa aaa aahh augh. Just reading that sentence gave me failed cart layout flashbacks.

Of course the absolute easiest method, if you don't mind doing most of it manually, is to just drop 2 minecarts into a trench of magma, then dump water on it from the floor above, then dig out the obsidian.  2 carts worth of magma is enough for a magma forge (4/7 magma).

I think QuantumMenace(?) demonstrated one that looked easier to me, and reusable, in his Wave Cannon save game. Set the carts to fill on a magma-safe floor grate, below which is a drain or smasher or whatever. Build a pump that pulls magma onto the carts and grate, and pump until the carts are full. Then just carry them away.

[StoneToad]

This looks really interesting! What's the peak speed, ticks per cart sent through?

Is there an easier way to count ticks then pressing '.' repeatedly and losing count?
The main problem speed wise is the magma refill.  I ended up with a 1 wide channel 13 squares long from the magma tube.

In the design I listed at the start, I had 4 carts loaded into it waiting for the 7/7 pressure plate to trigger, 1 in the trench and 3 stacked above it.  All 4 slammed through the trench right after it filled, but only 3 of them were full of magma.  I expect what that means is that if the trench is full to 7/7 magma, it can fill 2 carts.  Which seems to fit with my testing of the (failed) reversed design, opening a door makes the magma next to it drop in half right away

I tried a reversed system (dry first, then magma), and it doesn't work anywhere near as well.  I was using dumping zones for testing this time, since setting up minecart routes each time I changed the dump location was a royal pain, ...  But the main problem is losing magma depth before the carts have a chance to fill.  There also seems be a time or speed requirement, so one needs to be careful to not over accelerate the carts.

More testing reveals that impulse ramps will cause minecarts to gain speed in 6/7 magma and lower.  Impulse ramps seem to be able to keep minecarts moving on the level in magma, but can't push it up a level (which we already knew).  Possibly they are hitting some maximum speed?  However it seems that all your really need is a way to keep the last couple of spaces at 6/7 or lower.


New Improved Design! only 1 magma safe mechanism, and even that's optional!

Well, I'm not counting anything you're using to create a magma drain.  I ended up just piping it off the map for this one, since it made testing simpler.  The basic setup is just having a 4wide input, and a 1 tile drain to the side of the last ramp, this should keep the first several ramps permanently at 6/7 while the drain is open.

Top view, z0

Code: [Select]

wwww
+dRw
wwRw
wwRw
MMRw
MMRw
MMRw
MMRw  <-- I was dropping on this ramp when testing
wwRw <-- I'd suggest adding this line when building it to drop on a ramp here instead, as I ended up with one cart knocked into the magma input area once
wwww

Top view: z1 (as tested, the open space '.' is over the south most ramp)

Code: [Select]

wwww
w.pbw
wwww

Top view: z2

Code: [Select]

www
w.w
www

Top view: z3

Code: [Select]

www
S.w
www

The 4 input channels (~11 tiles long) coming off the side of my magma pipe were enough to keep the first 4 squares at 6/7 solidly with a 1 wide output.  I then had a 4wide path off draining off the edge of the map through fortifications.  Other drain systems would work, but since my pipe is right near the map edge that was super easy to setup.

On z1 I have a pressure plate (dry!) that opens the door on z0 when a cart is about to go through the lava (it will still be open when the cart leaves).  The door can actually be left out, or manually controlled  It's mostly just there so the magma stops flowing if you don't use it for a while.

z2 is just the top of the minecart stack and z3 is the track stop, you can put the stop on z2 (or even z1) safely if you're not using the bridge, since you won't have minecarts stacking up in reach of your dwarfs.

The bridge is optional, I used it to prime 4 carts at once, which makes one gets stuck on the pressure plate when you launch all 4 together, however it does not seem to jam the system and it loaded the other 3 with magma.  I'm sure someone has a good quantum cart stack dispenser design on the forums somewhere..... hopefully...  For a basic setup I'd just skip the bridge and rely on fact that track stops can only be used by one dwarf at a time.  If it does get stuck, you do kinda need to remove the cart, since it defeats the point of the door.  Then again, you don't really need the door either if you don't care about magma updates.

Once I ended up with a cart knocked sideways into the magma entrance area, but I've been unable to reproduce it.  I'd change the design as I noted in the diagram though just to be safe.

[evictedSaint]

A significant amount of research has already been put into this field, with two resulting mine-cart impulse-ramp-powered magma loader set ups.

My personal method:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126864.0

Method developed by Suoli:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126780.msg4295853#msg4295853

Both operate through 7/7 magma.

[StoneToad]

Good to have those links, all the hits I found when I was searching were either very vague (just use the hammer method)  This stuff really needs to be on the wiki...

Oddly enough, in my current test setup the newton's cradle/hammer method seems to work quite reliably.  Very odd, I had real issues before.  Maybe the blood of the 2 miners that died breaching the magma pool lubricated the rails...  More seriously impulse ramps seem to behave differently if they are not all the same.  I had jams when the last impulse ramp was a NW, changing it to NE like the rest make it work fine.

I ended up getting a version of Suoli's design working reliably as a side effect of my tests.  The issues I had seem to be that there is a requirement to have the cart fall directly vertically for a whole z level before it hits magma for it to fill reliably.   And possibly mixed ramps.

As far as the drain based design, only 2 magma input lines are actually required to keep the channel filled.  This should be a lot easier to dig then a 4wide channel, as you can space them out by 1 tile from each other, so it can be carved in just about anywhere.    It's fairly trivial to convert the 2 designs, all you have to do is add/remove the drain.  Or forget to open the door before sending your carts through...

I must confess though that doing all this testing has made me feel less confident in impulse ramp based designs, given how touchy they are to apparently innocuous changes.  I guess that's the whole fun in them though isn't it?