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Author Topic: Fortress Defense?  (Read 3571 times)

cvar

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Re: Fortress Defense?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2012, 10:18:45 am »

All civilians will drop what their doing (mostly) and rush to the burrow.  "Rush".

Only civilians? Meaning soldiers can ignore the burrow?

Yes soldiers ignore them, but you can control them by hitting s, and telling them all to 'm'ove inside.  Or you can set it up so that when you change to the "civilians inside" burrow, your military dwarves change their orders to "Defend Burrow".

I haven't played much with that yet, so I'm unsure of how to set it up.  I usually don't have many squads so I manually move them to where I want them.  Gonna test that when I get a chance later, be way more convenient to have my marksdwarves just show up at the right spot.
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KtosoX

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Re: Fortress Defense?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2012, 11:16:30 am »

I would dig out some channels and remove slops to create temporary defenses. Overall faster than walls and don't require building materials. Once that is done, channel out a 2 wide 10 long choke tunnel. Stuff it with traps and / or guard animals.
Bonus points for using that river to flush attackers in to a very long drop.

Edit:
I suggest moving that trade depot in between those 2 bridges creating an airlock of sorts.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 11:24:38 am by KtosoX »
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Build a grid of floor grates above the entire city. Draft a squadron of masons and bomb the crap out of the city with falling constructed walls.
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pushy

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Re: Fortress Defense?
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2012, 03:48:56 pm »

You could change these for something else like serrated blades traps. Those are pretty strong, although they can jam and when the dwarves release the trap it cuts them in two.
I'm surprised nobody else has quoted you already to point out that the bit in bold is complete bullshit. If weapon traps jam 50% of the time they're triggered, and unjamming them killed the mechanic that got them working again, they'd be even more useless than goddamn stone-fall traps (which used to be lethal but these days are so crap they rarely do much more than leave a few bruises)

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The dark yellow spots are where dogs are chained, so that you can see those sneaking goblins and kobolds, which otherwise walk over your traps.
This line could also do with a bit of clarity - only the kobolds don't trigger traps. Ambushing goblins cannot be seen but my trap corridors can damn well testify that they will trigger traps (and in some cases, like cage traps, one of the group triggering a trap will reveal that ambusher's whole squad...this won't be all of them - there could be several 8-goblin squads and each triggered trap only reveals one squad - but it's notification to you that ambushers are present without the use of chained animals)

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Really though, having only traps and no military leaves you with less flexibility and ability to save dwarves outside of your fort, and it also reduces the chance of survival if something goes wrong. Even having a moderately trained squad with copper armor/weapons can make a huge diffrence.
...in your opinion. I very rarely have an active military force (though all adult dwarves are armed just to be on the safe side - they all have mining or woodcutting as an active labour and carry the appropriate tool for that task) and have no trouble with survival because I design my forts fairly meticulously and consider fortress defence to be a key priority in ANY fort I build. OK, anyone outside the walls is fairly screwed but then they probably would be even if you have a military because by the time your soldiers get there to try and save them they've often already been turned into a goblin archer's pincushion.

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The weakness with these traps are that if you open the grates then the only pathable way in is though the red zone, which means they will take that way. This can be prevented with a bridge in the red zone which can be raised to create an instant wall, few monsters can destroy. Another flaw is if you somehow get a flying forgotten beast outside. It will fly over the grate holes, ignore all your traps (since it got trapavoid) and ignore the bridges falling on its head (some monsters are immune to it, probably to prevent abuse). Really though, if you are avoiding a military the only sure way of being safe is walling yourself in and thats just lame imo.
The weakness is not in the traps, but in crucial flaws within your design - you've designed that in such a way that you leave an untrapped path in even when the trapped way(s) is/are blocked for one reason or another. It's like booby-trapping your front door and windows while knowingly leaving the back door wide open and just hoping it won't be used.
There are NO creatures in the game that can destroy a raised drawbridge. None. Zero. A raised drawbridge is basically just a wall, end of story.
See that flying forgotten beast ignoring your traps? It's not ignoring the bridges falling on its head, it's destroying them. Yes, it's to prevent abuse (bridges were a cheap way of killing end-game nasties in the 2D version of DF years and years ago, so Toady made them and other big brutish creatures immune to bridge traps in the 3D version by having the bridges break if brought down on an immune creature or fail to activate if a creature standing on a bridge is too heavy). Flying forgotten beasts are rare enough that this isn't such a big deal but again it goes back to poor design on your part by not having anything in place to take care of flying enemies and particularly tough creatures like forgotten beasts. It does NOT mean that traps as a primary (or even sole) line of defence are bad.
With or without military, walling yourself in is the only way to 100% guarantee your dwarves' safety. Poor trap defence designs are about as effective as conscripted peasants - they might take down a goblin or two but the goblins will overcome their inherent weaknesses, whether that be by skill (i.e. being more adept at killing peasants, being able to dodge traps) or simply by sheer volume of numbers. Good trap defence can leave you perfectly free to never use a military and still be fairly assured of your dwarves' safety, and I absolutely mean that (it's how I've run 99% of my forts over the past five years). It might fail, but then your squads of legendary soldiers with the best-quality weapons and armour you could give them could also fail.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 03:52:04 pm by pushy »
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Starver

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Re: Fortress Defense?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2012, 04:17:00 pm »

My basic design is to have multiple long paths into the 'centre' of my complex, open by default but equipped with isolating elements (drawbridges, raisable-bridges to create walls, etc) with guard creatures keeping an eye on the entrances (usually in what I tend to call my "belly-gunner sentry pillboxes" which are restockable at safe times if the creature inside gets sniped off, so I'll let you work out how and where I build them), and I also make normally-closed side-entrances from which I can unleash a melee force to finish off any stray (and now trapped, and or wishing-to-flee) invaders, or quickly let in caravans or migrants that arrive at any point except directly at the point the invaders arrived.

Control of ground, is my philosophy... control of ground.  You might be able to extend your current map to do this, though it really is better to start off from the get-go with this in mind.  I could imagine a mini-version of the philosophy being used in your case, though, especially if taken underground (with deliberately poked-up entrances in the four corners/mid-edges (or all eight the above) that lead into switchable labyrinthine/direct access into the centre, and leave the middle 'fort' area either as less attractive target or even seal it off completely.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Fortress Defense?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2012, 04:59:59 pm »

they'd be even more useless than goddamn stone-fall traps (which used to be lethal but these days are so crap they rarely do much more than leave a few bruises)
Stone fall traps are leeeeeeeeeeeeethal in .11. If not for you, web them/make hundreds. You've got plenty to spare.

Shininglight

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Re: Fortress Defense?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2012, 06:07:17 pm »

I just had an entire ambush be wiped out by stone fall traps.
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tl;dr: My fortress is literally powered by puppy skulls.

Veylon

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Re: Fortress Defense?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2012, 07:46:17 pm »

Have you tried minecart grinders? They can certainly be added to go along with all of the above.
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At what point did the suggestion of child sacrifice become the more ethical option?
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