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Author Topic: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod  (Read 12468 times)

GavJ

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 05:00:25 pm »

There are no raws to post "that make trees drop globs" because that's not how I did it.

It's literally just adding:
[MELTING_POINT:9000] or whatever to any types of tree local plant mat materials you want to control the workflow of. Or to just changing the wood template to have that melting point (careful about other overrides, though, like nethercap). It would be like 40 pages of raws, because it's just adding that line amongst huge amounts of default raw text.

And then also adding [DO_NOT_CLEAN_GLOB] to those wood materials in question.

Finally, I personally added a [REACTION_CLASS:LUMBER] to them as well, but I don't know if that was really necessary. You could probably specify globs with wood material or whatever, but I just find reaction classes intuitive and easy, since I can just use reagents that say [REAGENT:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:LUMBER] and not think about it too hard or open myself up to weird bugs later.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 05:03:23 pm by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Meph

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 05:06:52 pm »

Ah ok, thanks. :)

But careful with things like [REAGENT:1:NONE:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:LUMBER]. This would for example accept a wood glob to make a wood chair, but would also accept a wood chair to make a wood chair. ;)
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
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GavJ

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2014, 05:19:32 pm »

The chair is made out of a different material the way I have it set up. Still looks the same to the player, but is not the same. The raw globs are the only things made out of the reaction class original vanilla wood mats. Kinda has to be that way anyway, because otherwise your chairs would all melt.

But that does remind me of
"They say be carved it himself... out of a bigger spoon."
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Meph

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2014, 07:54:02 pm »

How about negative sideeffects from working with dangerous materials?

Code: [Select]
[INORGANIC:ARSENIC_POISON] used lead for strength
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:arsenic fumes]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:arsenic]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:arsenic fumes]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:0:7:1] [BUILD_COLOR:0:7:1]
[SPEC_HEAT:130]
[MELTING_POINT:9000]
[BOILING_POINT:9000]
[SOLID_DENSITY:10000]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:10000]
[MOLAR_MASS:207200]
[IMPACT_YIELD:35000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:42000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:760]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:35000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:42000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:760] 46
[TENSILE_YIELD:10000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:12000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:63] 16
[TORSION_YIELD:10000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:12000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:179]
[SHEAR_YIELD:10000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:12000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:179] 5.6
[BENDING_YIELD:10000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:12000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:63]
[MAX_EDGE:10000]
[SYNDROME]
[SYN_NAME:arsenic poisoning]
[SYN_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[SYN_INHALED]
[CE_IMPAIR_FUNCTION:SEV:10:PROB:100:VASCULAR_ONLY:BP:BY_CATEGORY:HEART:ALL:START:5:PEAK:900:END:5000]
[CE_NECROSIS:SEV:20:PROB:75:BP:BY_CATEGORY:SKIN:ALL:START:1000:PEAK:7000]
[CE_IMPAIR_FUNCTION:SEV:10:PROB:50:VASCULAR_ONLY:BP:BY_CATEGORY:LUNG:ALL:START:5:PEAK:900:END:5000]
[CE_IMPAIR_FUNCTION:SEV:100:PROB:25:VASCULAR_ONLY:BP:BY_CATEGORY:THOUGHT:ALL:START:9000:PEAK:12000:END:12000]
[CE_PAIN:SEV:75:PROB:100:BP:BY_TOKEN:LIMB:ALL:START:1000:PEAK:2000]
[CE_COUGH_BLOOD:SEV:100:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:VASCULAR_ONLY:START:1000:PEAK:20000]
[SPECIAL][NO_STONE_STOCKPILE]

[INORGANIC:SULFUR_POISON] used lead for strength
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:sulfur fumes]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten sulfur]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:sulfur fumes]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:6:0:1] [BUILD_COLOR:0:7:1]
[SPEC_HEAT:130]
[MELTING_POINT:9000]
[BOILING_POINT:9000]
[SOLID_DENSITY:10000]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:10000]
[MOLAR_MASS:207200]
[IMPACT_YIELD:35000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:42000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:760]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:35000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:42000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:760] 46
[TENSILE_YIELD:10000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:12000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:63] 16
[TORSION_YIELD:10000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:12000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:179]
[SHEAR_YIELD:10000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:12000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:179] 5.6
[BENDING_YIELD:10000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:12000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:63]
[MAX_EDGE:10000]
[SYNDROME]
[SYN_NAME:sulfur smell]
[SYN_AFFECTED_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
[SYN_INHALED]
[CE_NAUSEA:SEV:50:PROB:70:RESISTABLE:VASCULAR_ONLY:START:10:PEAK:1000:END:1000]
[SPECIAL][NO_STONE_STOCKPILE]
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

GavJ

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2014, 10:10:15 pm »

Maybe, but much more chronic if so. Like 1-2% chances of stuff, and then weeks or months of buildup to maximum severity.

(What's the longest you can type in for time lengths in syndromes?)

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Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Pootis

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2014, 05:14:59 pm »

fuel must be charcoal only
Why not coke?
Charcoal is purer than mineral carbon in terms of impurities
I believe this only applies to unrefined coal. The coking process removes such impurities from coal in the same way charcoal is made. (The two processes are analogous and in fact quite similar).
Coke and charcoal are basically the same thing (Pure carbon, more or less).

While it's true that utilization of coke for metallurgy didn't start in Europe until about the 16th century, there's no reason to assume that Dwarven technology is ignorant of the above.
And according to Wikipedia, Chinese iron workers began using coke as furnace fuel as early as the 11th century.

Also, since coke and charcoal is basically equivalent in vanilla DF it's clear that Toady is aware of the above.

I should also note that as long as you're not melting your iron or keeping it close to melting for long periods of time (as in a bloomery), the impurities in raw coal don't really effect it too much. Raw bituminous coal can and is used for blacksmithing (I've done it IRL). The hot part of the fire in a coal forge is actually a ball of burning coke, and you typically have a ring of burning coal surrounding it that's turning into more coke. So there's a case to be made for allowing raw coal to be used as metalworking fuel, rather than just coke/charcoal.

14th century Europe did not have blast furnaces in any significant usage

While it may be true that blast furnaces weren't utilized extensively during the pre-rennaisance period, seeing as how Dwarves are the most technically advanced (at least metallurgy-wise) among DF civilizations I don't think it's a stretch to say they might be slightly ahead of the curve on this one.
The way I understand it, the only difference between blast furnaces and bloomeries is that the blast furnace is bigger and hotter, thus melting the iron, requiring flux and allowing continuous operation instead of batch processing. Perhaps add a 'bellows' workshop that could be Dwarf or machine operated that's required for a proper blast furnace. (Realistically I should add that continuous forced air should be necessary for a bloomeries and smelters, hell even forges as well). Big powered bloomeries could easily become blast furnaces and that could be a pretty bad thing if you're not equipped to deal with the molten pig iron.
And even if you can fairly easily mass-produce pig iron it's still a long way off from steel and still needs fairly intensive de-carburizing procedures.

Anyway, I definitely like the ideas in this mod. Hope you plan on updating for 40.0X!


« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 05:22:02 pm by Pootis »
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milo christiansen

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2014, 02:35:45 pm »

This looks really cool. If no one minds I think I'll port it to Rubble and extend it a little (I like lots of alloys, so a few unrealistic things are just fine by me :p)
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After all, coke is for furnaces, not for snorting.
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GavJ

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2014, 11:02:49 am »

TL;DR: I could include coke (when DF2014 becomes stable enough to update this), but it would at least have to be handicapped, with more effort to make it than charcoal in pure form, and/or more refining steps for the metal, and/or weaker steel versions.

Long version:

Quote
I believe this only applies to unrefined coal.
Contemporary sources I found as well as the first half dozen secondary sources all attest to a significant difference between COKE and charcoal, differences that mattered for metalworking.

First of all, coke requires vastly higher temperatures to make than charcoal. You're looking at around 1800 degrees F, versus more like 500-600. So one requires a furnace, while the other requires a big pile of dirt and wood and one dude watching several dumptruck-fulls during the process. Charcoal is much cheaper and less labor-intensive to make, so at the very least, if you want to equate the two as fuels, it would only be fair to make coke much harder to make in-game by comparison.  If you don't use intense external heat supply, you get still more chemical impurity differences between the two (see next paragraph):

Secondly, neither charcoal nor coke are pure carbon, and are not chemically interchangeable. They are carbon + whatever was in the original material that is refractory and non-volatile, which occurs in the tens of percents, not trace amounts. In the case of charcoal, this is a small amount of ash consisting of almost entirely of silicon and calcium and potassium ions. In the case of coke, this is a different composition. There is much more silicon (which is bad - it makes the steel larger grained and harder to work for forging and weaker in overly high amounts.) and sulphur and phosphorus in  much larger amounts as well, which embrittle the steel. In either case, source material matters, but with wood, there is almost always more variety to optimize from (lots of species of trees nearby) versus typically once homogenous source of coal locally.

Historically, you can see that everybody everywhere converted to coke for iron only after charcoal became too rare or expensive locally. The final product is either inferior, or requires a number of extra explicit purification steps that are expensive and time consuming.

At best, in the mod, I could add two production branches - an easier, higher quality charcoal route, or a coke route that has more processing steps and fuel and/or weaker steel.

Quote
Raw bituminous coal can and is used for blacksmithing (I've done it IRL).
Notice that my mod does not require charcoal for the forge building. Thus, it does already allow a wider latitude of fuels for blacksmithing. Blacksmithing is quite different than smelting, even bloom smelting.

Quote
The way I understand it, the only difference between blast furnaces and bloomeries is that the blast furnace is bigger and hotter, thus melting the iron, requiring flux and allowing continuous operation instead of batch processing.
And it uses chromatography for separation instead of physical pounding out.
And in order to get to the hotter temperatures, it requires more oxygen, which also changes the chemistry around.
And it requires extra steps insofar as pig iron is useless by itself and requires fining forges etc, whereas bloomery iron is workable directly.

In addition to the differences you mentioned, it's actually quite different.

And yes, dwarves might have had access to it, being dwarves and whatever. I actually included it at first, but in play testing, it was less fun, because it was just almost impossible to strike a realistic and interesting balance between the two methods. Blast furnaces had to be more efficient if/when you had flux, otherwise what's the point. And yet this was difficult to accomplish in dwarf terms what with the extra steps and the lack of an ability to actually mod continuous processing, etc.

It ended up being either only marginally better and boring, or bloomeries had to be too inefficient and frustrating on non flux maps to be fun. *shrug*

Quote
This looks really cool. If no one minds I think I'll port it to Rubble and extend it a little (I like lots of alloys, so a few unrealistic things are just fine by me :p)
With some sort of credit, sure.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 11:06:03 am by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Liber celi

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2014, 12:19:44 pm »

I like this one, from the sound of it. I'm hoping for a 40.XX update!
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GavJ

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2014, 01:53:44 pm »

Anybody is welcome to port it over, with just trivial credit on the download page.

I am unmotivated to do so as long as updates continue every few days.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

4maskwolf

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2015, 09:36:49 pm »

well, updates aren't happening every couple days anymore.

Propman

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2015, 11:32:34 pm »

I saw that in the "more metals" thread, but when I looked it up:
1) It was outside what I perceive as Toady's geographical area and time period from all the other stuff in the game.
2) Even in the east, it basically seems like nobody had any idea what they were doing and thought it was just special white copper. Thus, if it were to be added, it shouldn't be as an intentionally alloyed mixture of specific ores (smelter reaction), but rather would just be a variant of copper ore vein that happens to have nickel impurities in it.
3) Another vein type f metal that is just instantly good seems a little boring.
4) More importantly, given #2, it undermines the effort and extra challenge of the iron and bronze methods added, competing with them on the basis of pure luck of finding veins. It's supposed to be both realism and an associated challenge.

So mainly because of #3 and #4 gameplay reasons, I prefer to use #1 as an excuse not to include.

It should be noted that Toady's basic human model is based off of Mediterranean culture rather then that of southern Europe; they're predominantly bronze workers, wear articles of clothing including turbans and togas, wield scimitars and have a chance to generate with square shields of the type used by Roman soldiers, worship a pantheon rather then a monotheistic deity, use slaves to varying degrees rather then serfs, and their architecture is closer in design to what one would find in the middle east (flat tops, square towers) than anything else. Black bronze is reference to Corinthian Bronze specifically, while many of the monsters found in DF include those found in classical mythology.

Nevertheless, this mod's reaction use spikes my interest.
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klefenz

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Re: Realistic 14th Century Metallurgy Mod
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2015, 04:25:21 am »

Arsenic! for when selling lead goblets to elves just doesnt cut it.
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