Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[knutor]

11/09/2012  And here are the baronies and assorted relationships for a few small worlds. In the Nobility/Holdings map, which is a work-in-progress export from the legends view, you can currently see the location of dukes in red, counts in orange and barons in yellow, with the monarch in purple.

Interesting, news from Toady.  But, reaching over a sea to a tertiary holding is impossible, without a Navy.  I'd go so far as to say, spheres of influence, or areas need to be drawn in from river to river, cliff to cliff, seashore to seashore.  Not vectors.

I'd like to see spheres of influence bubbles instead of vectors, particularly how the Elf nobility chop up their topside terrain as opposed to the newly civilized, cave-hugging Kobolds communities. 

Leeping like Toady appears to do from mountain range to mountain range, seems a tall order, for any Monarch without a led zeppelin.  Kingdoms need to be much smaller and have less sprawl than the maps represent, unless these are subregion maps and not overall region maps.  Or meglomaniac Monarchs after 2000 years of history and conflict. 

What I'm saying, is these maps allow for 0 growth!  Sincerely, Knutor

[AutomataKittay]

Spread of civilization will inevitably result in zero growth, if only from overpopulation and territories being all taken up.

Granted, current civilization modelling spreads MUCH faster than any historical civilization that I'm aware of, and to much higher density

[knutor]

I think its cool, he's sharing development.  I wish he had provided a bit more about the worldgen for these maps.  Especially, but not limited to, history.  My guess is they are 100ish year old worlds, that the Great One is showing.  It definately an island.  Hard to tell however, if its got mythological creatures rampaging around or all extinct.  Exact Age of X, is hard to determine precisely, but not hard to limit in on, judging by the Civs. 

I agree with you Automatakittay.  There should be a penalty setup for Monarch's buying up postworldgen neutral land, to keep sprawl in balance.  Or a hostility factor, to prevent every block becoming hogged up, as history unravels.  This, I see with humans all the time, after the necromancer patches.  So, so many crypts appear in long history runs around human sites.

[darknessofthenight]

I would like to see Civilizations of the same race going to war over land. I think this would solve the problem because while all the land would be claimed early on, if the civilizations had to defend their claims the game would be more interesting, also being attacked by dwarfs in fortress mode.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also, it's realistic--for goblins, humans, and dwarves at least.
I'm rereading Guns, Germs, and Steel, so I'm thinking about this through that lens. Dwarves, humans, and goblins are clearly "states" by Diamond's reckoning, and states argue over land rights; kobolds and animalpeople are bands or tribes. Elven society is...confusing.

[Avo]

Our current model can't be compared to historical spreading rates; dwarves spawn about the same rate humans do but they don't suffer from diseases and don't really seem to freeze to death or the like. This drastically improves lifespan and as a side effect it increases the number of dwarves who can procreate at any given time. Eventually I imagine more ways to die will be added and that should put a damper on our bunny like dwarves.

[darknessofthenight]

I don't think it's that the dwarfs reproduce so much i think that the dwarfs just claim to much land. and exspand

[GreatWyrmGold]

Our current model can't be compared to historical spreading rates; dwarves spawn about the same rate humans do but they don't suffer from diseases and don't really seem to freeze to death or the like. This drastically improves lifespan and as a side effect it increases the number of dwarves who can procreate at any given time. Eventually I imagine more ways to die will be added and that should put a damper on our bunny like dwarves.

The longer lives and inability to use any sort of birth control (including abstinence) doesn't help matters...

[knutor]

The CMO needs to be present at child birth.  And gain a slight boost to Diagnose, as a result of slapping the infants bottom to shut it the hell up.  If he's not present, everyone in the fortress should wake up.  L & D is noisy.  That'd possibly slow population growth.

I don't know that the problem is so much population related, as it is land ownership and the imprecise drawing of border lines, and handling overlapping border lines as a result of misdrawn maps. 

I'd rather have the battles determine nobility, rather than simple square footage, myself.  Certainly population size shouldn't determine a noble's rank, every good noble prides himself in working the peasantry to the brink of death and burning their homes. 

When populations get too large, its time for war and plague.

[darknessofthenight]

agreed I like the idea of doing nobility by wealth.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The CMO needs to be present at child birth.  And gain a slight boost to Diagnose, as a result of slapping the infants bottom to shut it the hell up.  If he's not present, everyone in the fortress should wake up.  L & D is noisy.  That'd possibly slow population growth.

Well, several issues, from "babies are quieter than mining" to "how would this slow birth rate?" to "Why is 'slapping the infant's bottom' a diagnosis skill?"

I don't know that the problem is so much population related, as it is land ownership and the imprecise drawing of border lines, and handling overlapping border lines as a result of misdrawn maps. 

The problem being discussed was about growth.
I'm not sure if there is anything like land ownership ATM, although that might actually contribute to the problem... Population growth being unrealistically high is a bigger problem, though.

I'd rather have the battles determine nobility, rather than simple square footage, myself.  Certainly population size shouldn't determine a noble's rank, every good noble prides himself in working the peasantry to the brink of death and burning their homes. 

That's... well, a few nobles, maybe, but most were chosen by birth.
Land ownership didn't come into it.

When populations get too large, its time for war and plague.

Those aren't really simulated.
A medieval woman might have a baby every year or two, but most of the kids would die of disease before they got old enough to marry. Unless they starved or got killed. In the DF world, dwarves live longer and therefore could have more children before getting old and gray, but the children would also die from cavern beasties and other Fun issues, so it balances out.

agreed I like the idea of doing nobility by wealth.

That's pretty much the opposite of what knutor said. I believe that the first nobles may be the richest of the land, but after that it's mostly hereditary. Maybe wealth or battle prowess could get you a noble title, but the high-ranking guys are pretty much hereditary.

[darknessofthenight]

I meant in terms of sites being barony versus county for example. not which dwarf becomes the baron after the current one dies 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Ah.

Isn't that more or less how it works, partly?

[knutor]

Birthrights.  It think, birthrights, is how nobility works.  And when no birthright exists, land grants, deeds and influence.  Land can be equated, disproportionately, to Fortress wealth.  Although, I wouldn't want to be the one putting that responsibility on Toady's plate, it is crazy complex, understanding the devaluation of a flood zone, comparatively to that of the paradise isles with extravagant shorelines, vs trade route intersecting tax havens.  Its easier to just use Birthrights.  And then have barons fight over ascension if the royal family runs dry of male offspring.  I fond of Darknessofthenight, proposal, and have inter race conflict.  Epic Loyalty Cascades!  Be nice to see the goose suffer the same fate as the gander.  Player has had to endure Loyalty Cascades for long enough, be nice if the AI had to now, also.

[GreatWyrmGold]

...
That is a lot. A rambling lot.
Birthright is about what is in right now.