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[Courtesy Arloban]

I'm just arguing for some logic behind it, not real life logic, and the means to do so would not hinder development in any way.  I've proposed two new types of ghosts and procedural generation to provide more variation.  The current explanation for ghosts is insufficient. 

I can enjoy reading the adventures of a kobold bard.  When the story suddenly states that everyones shadows start attacking them, I'd like more of an explanation than "because the kobold's were not watching them!"   The reason is that I just know somethings not right in the story, shadows don't attack people because they aren't being watched.  It doesn't have to be a scientific answer I'd settle for a outside cause, something that occured to make the shadows attack.  The kobolds are more believable because they are, material, organic, and anthropomorphic.  The same goes for the ghosts in the game I don't need an element corrodium to cause dwarves to rise as ghosts, but i do need an outside cause.  Maybe that the dwarves never died and everyone is just shunning them.

Or I'm reading a story about a parallel earth that branched off in recent history, and Polar Bears master the art of forging armor and develop the religious belief that their armor is their soul.  They create a language and a civilization during the middle ages on earth.  When no explanation is provided for why these polar bears are unlike the ones in our branch of history, I can only come up with one explanation.  The writer of that series truly believes polar bears capable of that feat in the real world!

[Manveru Taurënér]

... The writer of that series truly believes polar bears capable of that feat in the real world!

Or... He's writing a fantasy novel and explaining it all in too much detail would ruin the fantasy.

And afaik ghosts have been properly explained in DF, in that their spirits cannot rest if their bodies are not taken care of in accordance to their customs or otherwise memorialized. That's enough of an explanation for ghosts to make sense imo. Not to say some minor additions to that wouldn't be nice, with ghosts being able to come back for other reasons as well, but it is in no way needed for the world to be believable.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yeah, what Manveru said. Why must everything be due to regional magic, and why must an explanation be in the draws before it counts?

[Courtesy Arloban]

... The writer of that series truly believes polar bears capable of that feat in the real world!

Or... He's writing a fantasy novel and explaining it all in too much detail would ruin the fantasy.

And afaik ghosts have been properly explained in DF, in that their spirits cannot rest if their bodies are not taken care of in accordance to their customs or otherwise memorialized. That's enough of an explanation for ghosts to make sense imo. Not to say some minor additions to that wouldn't be nice, with ghosts being able to come back for other reasons as well, but it is in no way needed for the world to be believable.

I should probably have mentioned that particular writer went into excruciating detail about everything else in his setting, his ghosts were made of a magic dust, so were his angels and god.  His magic was applied theology., He described every way in which his world was different from ours.  The only things he left out an explanation for was the polar bears, and why witches could fly.  It was the golden compass series by the way.

Saying that souls can't rest until the body is buried or memorialized, doesn't explain how the soul is able to actually do anything about it, nor how it is able to sense whether the body is buried or memorialized, or even why the soul needs rest.

Going with another explanation, that the soul is trapped in the world until a proper ritual is conducted to send them to the hereafter, is a little better explanation, but it still wouldn't cover how the soul is suddenly able to perform feats it cannot do in life.  It also would mean that the world should have a large population of ghosts that died before anyone knew the ritual to send them packing.  It also begs the question, what is holding souls in the world?

I recommended a regional interaction, it is not a scientific theory, it is just a cause that can be named.  It doesn't change the game into dwarf space station.  It doesn't remove ghosts or even change them, it just allows people a choice to generate worlds without them, and modders the ability to make their own ghosts and ghostly monsters.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Unable to rest from not being memorialized is a cause. It's just not a moddable cause.

And when have the laws of physics stopped dwarves--or anything in DF--from not existing?

[Courtesy Arloban]

Unable to rest from not being memorialized is a cause. It's just not a moddable cause.

There needs to be a connection for it to be a cause, even in abstact senses like causes of war, depend on the flow of information to people who make decisions.  If it's his ghost powers that make him able to sense that he wasn't buried or memorialized, and it's his rage at not being buried or memorialized that gives him ghost powers, where did it all start?

And when have the laws of physics stopped dwarves--or anything in DF--from not existing?

It is not the existance of the dwarven soul that makes ghosts unbelievable, it is the abilities a ghost has that are baseless.  Going with the theory that a ghost has these abilities, some of which are contradictions in themselves, and that the ghost is nothing more than the soul of a dwarf, then the dwarf should have these abilities even stronger in life.  If his ghost can see, when his corpses eyes are somewhere else, then he should see just fine without eyes.  If his ghost can move under it's own power and carry objects the weight of his body, he should be able to move without muscles.  If his ghost cannot rest until he's been memorialized or buried, he'll be miserable until you build him that memorial in life too.  If his ghost can pass through solid objects at will, then he should be able to astrally project himself out of his body and grab some booze on the other side of the wall.

So an explanation is needed for where these new found abilities come from, other than the dwarfs emotions providing the answer. 

[GreatWyrmGold]

Unable to rest from not being memorialized is a cause. It's just not a moddable cause.

And when have the laws of physics stopped dwarves--or anything in DF--from not existing?

There needs to be a connection for it to be a cause, even in abstact senses like causes of war, depend on the flow of information to people who make decisions.

It is not the existance of the dwarven soul that makes ghosts unbelievable, it is the abilities a ghost has that are baseless.  Going with the theory that a ghost has these abilities, some of which are contradictions in themselves, and that the ghost is nothing more than the soul of a dwarf, then the dwarf should have these abilities even stronger in life.  If his ghost can see, when his corpses eyes are somewhere else, then he should see just fine without eyes.  If his ghost can move under it's own power and carry objects the weight of his body, he should be able to move without muscles.  If his ghost cannot rest until he's been memorialized or buried, he'll be miserable until you build him that memorial in life too.  If his ghost can pass through solid objects at will, then he should be able to astrally project himself out of his body and grab some booze on the other side of the wall.

So an explanation is needed for where these new found abilities come from, other than the dwarfs emotions providing the answer.

How is "some ghosts can rip off limbs" a contradiction, and how can dwarves not do that in life? And why can ghosts not be idealized manifestations of what the soul composing them could and would have been if it could choose, and bring its own eyes with it? Besides, dwarves seem to function fairly well even when the eyes are rotted out; blind dwarves can still navigate and work perfectly well, they just ignore enemies. And dwarven souls are tied to their bodies in life; once they die, the connection is severed, because that's sorta the metaphysical definition of death. The dwarven soul can now pass through walls because its flesh no longer obstructs it.
I made that all up just now.

[Courtesy Arloban]

How is "some ghosts can rip off limbs" a contradiction, and how can dwarves not do that in life?

I'm glad you asked, because that is the very root of the contradiction.  The ghost can touch the limb if it wants, but the limb can't touch it.

And why can ghosts not be idealized manifestations of what the soul composing them could and would have been if it could choose, and bring its own eyes with it? Besides, dwarves seem to function fairly well even when the eyes are rotted out; blind dwarves can still navigate and work perfectly well, they just ignore enemies. And dwarven souls are tied to their bodies in life; once they die, the connection is severed, because that's sorta the metaphysical definition of death. The dwarven soul can now pass through walls because its flesh no longer obstructs it.
I made that all up just now.

That's the next part of the contradiction, how can the physical body hold the dwarves own soul and keep it from freely roaming about when it can't touch another soul? 

Even giving a boost to the ghosts senses due to deprivation of the body, wouldn't explain why they don't get the same boost when deprived, but still alive.  If the eyes are scooped out the ghost should develop sight the same as when the dwarf dies.  A paralyzing blow to the spine should activate the ability to float like a ghost.  And the strong emotions felt when fighting for their life should have an even stronger effect as not being buried or memorialized.  And if attacked by a ghost, when the dwarf swings his fist, his soul should make contact with the ghost, and send it's upper body sailing off in an arc.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The dwarven soul can touch living flesh, but the soul is too nimble and frightening for any dwarf to successfully attack it. If you can buy dragons being immune to fire and creating fire hot enough to completely destroy steel bridges, you can buy that.
The dwarven body is a vessel for a soul. Water can wear down a stone jug, but a stone jug does nothing to a pool of water.
Besides, a ghost is already dead, and as it is an idealized manifestation of what the soul composing them could and would have been if it could choose, the wound would just heal anyways. So there's no point coding in attacking an unkillable, regenerating entity.
Again, the soul is a reflection of what the mind wants to be, and therefore has eyes. The body does not like that, because dwarven wizards aren't programmed in yet.
Gravity may not affect the soul, but it affects the body, like an anchor weighs down a ship.
If you can buy most of the crap fantasy novels and games give you, without any explanation, you can buy this.

Oh, and you can't sever upper bodies, they're the thing everything's connected to.

[Courtesy Arloban]

The dwarven soul can touch living flesh, but the soul is too nimble and frightening for any dwarf to successfully attack it. If you can buy dragons being immune to fire and creating fire hot enough to completely destroy steel bridges, you can buy that.
The dwarven body is a vessel for a soul. Water can wear down a stone jug, but a stone jug does nothing to a pool of water.
Besides, a ghost is already dead, and as it is an idealized manifestation of what the soul composing them could and would have been if it could choose, the wound would just heal anyways. So there's no point coding in attacking an unkillable, regenerating entity.
Again, the soul is a reflection of what the mind wants to be, and therefore has eyes. The body does not like that, because dwarven wizards aren't programmed in yet.
Gravity may not affect the soul, but it affects the body, like an anchor weighs down a ship.
If you can buy most of the crap fantasy novels and games give you, without any explanation, you can buy this.

Oh, and you can't sever upper bodies, they're the thing everything's connected to.

You give a very reasonable analogy for the body and the soul to interact, the game doesn't actually handle it that way though.  The spirit doesn't dodge, the attacks just pass through.

When modding a creature to be intangible, they were extremely fragile and I did get the message that I punched one's upper body off in the arena.  Obviously the ghost code works different.

Yes gravity affects the body, it also affects all the things a ghost can pick up and move now, the paralyzed dwarf developing the ability to float is simply his soul picking up his body.

The ghost can be a powered up version of the soul, but where does the power come from?  If it's from the emotions of the body, it should be able to power up in life.  If it's losing energy replenishing the body, that needs further explanation as to how?  If after all their power is due to them being free of a body, wouldn't touching one instantly drain them to only a soul?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Again, there's no point in wasting time coding attacks that do little to an entity that can heal faster than you can attack.

You might have punched off most of the upper body's tissue, but it is IMPOSSIBLE to sever the upper body of a creature using the standard body plan. Lower body is fair game, though.

Again, gravity affects the body but not the soul. The dwarf who is paralyzed still has a body. See the problem?

The energy might well come from the ghost trying frantically to get itself memorialized or buried so it can move on, or perhaps its energy comes from no longer needing food, drink, or rest to sustain its energy levels. Or maybe it just uses a lot less energy now that it has no body to keep alive and stuff.

-----

Anyways, your original suggestion was about adding regional interactions for ghosts, not removing them. How will adding procedural generation of ghost code make the ghosts more justified?

[Courtesy Arloban]

I'm just reporting the message I received in the arena. I know that it doesn't work the way the message said.  I know the gravity is acting on the dwarfs body, and I understand the body should not move, but a ghost can pick up a body in the game and move it.

The reason dragons and other mythological creatures don't ruin my suspension of disbeleif in the game is that it's not earth.  While dragons may be capable of a feat in the game that is unbelievable, their existance itself doesn't come off as incredulous.  When I read a work of fiction about dragons it's usually the author's own world that they inhabit.  When I'm reading a story about historical earth and a dragon pops up it does ruin my suspension of belief somewhat, especially if it's set close to modern times.  Unless an explanation of some sort is provided, like some biologist with a passion for medieval legends deliberately creates them.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Okay, let's stop arguing about how ghosts are real or unrealistic. Your suggestion is not to remove ghosts or change them, just to cause them to be procedurally generated. How does this make them more realistic?