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Author Topic: How do you get such nice fortresses?  (Read 2711 times)

FFXBHU

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 07:10:26 pm »


Mac user here too - you must never have heard of Dwarf Builder for Mac, which comes complete with DT and Soundsense. Basically the package builds you an instance of DF using your favourite graphics pack and settings, and builds you a DT app too.  It's here - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106974

:o
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Urist McSpike

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2012, 08:02:22 pm »

Hello there, i've been playing DF for about a year now and i've followed the forum for a bit longer than that, however i've noticed somethign odd, all of my fortresses never seem to get fully smoothed or engraved. I've only had one fort get above 100 pop but it was killed by a goblin seige shortly after. What i don't understand is how everyone seems to have such nicely built, fully stocked and organised forts when i'm still trying to get my bedrooms dug for the 4th migrant wave. I was wondering how you prioritise and set thigns up to be able to get so much done so quickly. Help would be nice as i just can't seem to get my forts looking decent let alone as interesting as many of you seem able to do.

Apologies in advance if I get multiple posts - net connection is messed up.

So the first thing to do, is keep the game paused at the start.  Look around the map, see what resources you have available, and where you might build.  Keep the game paused, and start planning/designating out your areas, and keep an idea of what order you want to build things.

Priorities, to me are this:
1.  Defense - built walls, a ridge you can clean ramps from to make enemies go around, maybe a river you can use to limit attackers.  Design something to funnel attackers into a small entry point, that you can close with gates, or fill with traps or war dogs.  For example, my current map had a ridge outcropping that is now my pastures/farms.  I dug out & cleared ramps around half of it, and built walls along the other section.  Initially it had a gate closure, with a huge dog park in front of it; after I dug out & around to make the "main entry", I replaced the gate with walls.  On the defense note, I tend to turn off all Fishing & Hunting, and rely on my own food production - which keeps my dwarves from wandering the countryside.

2. Food & drink.  A couple of small plots (2x3) of plump helmets, restricted to brewing, then a couple of plots for other crops & a few egg laying hens for food, will last you for some time.  I like to restrict my animals to a few types (chickens/turkeys, sheep, pigs, dogs), so I butcher the "excess" brought in by immigrants, for meat, lard & bones.

3. Crafting area & Trade Depot.  Initially, you'll need Carpenter, Mason, Mechanic and Craftsdwarf workshops.  I like to focus on Rock Crafts for trade goods, so I set someone to doing that a few at a time.  (Queue up 10 jobs in the workshop every so often.)  Masons crank out blocks for walls & such, and I like to get one chair fast, for the Bookkeeper.  My early trading is for extra booze, empty barrels, and maybe an anvil or some bits of armor & a few crossbows.  I also like buying wood.

4.  Dorm/sleeping/meeting area.  My initial dorm is rough, with a small supply of beds - 10 at first, and build more as I get more migrants coming in.  These low quality beds are later used in the hospital.

By that point, you should have at least one migrant wave.  I like to end up with about 4-6 miners, 2 carpenters, 3-5 woodcutters, 5-6 masons, 2-4 engravers, and a mix of others.  My "general labor" pool tends to have all metalcrafting, leatherworking, clothesmaking, stone crafts and maybe a couple of others enabled - in the hopes of getting usable moods.  My "specialists" have most other skills turned off.  Having only a few engravers is better overall, instead of having 20-30 workers.  Once their skill gets up, they fly through the workload!  But I do draft temp workers for a skill, when I have a rush job, such as building the initial outer walls.

So now, you should have a small defensible base with a decent food & drink supply, and a nifty pre-designated mapped out fortress, that you can start working on.  Isolate sections as you want to work on them, so that your miners stay focused.  Now you can move on to bigger things - more intricate defenses, mass bedrooms, noble areas, temples, or whatever.

As for your fortress design...  Look at other people's works for ideas, and experiment.  You'll figure out how much is enough, or not enough.  One example... I like to have a grand dining/meeting room, which extends upwards for 3 levels.  On each upper level, a balcony overlooks the dining room below, and hallways lead off to corridors with ten 3x3 bedrooms.  I have stairs in each corner leading down to the dining room, and then a single hallway leading out of it (with a mister above) to connect to the rest of the fort, so that every dwarf going out or coming back from work gets a happiness boost.  Also, I like to use Dwarven Bathtubs at the entrances, to keep the mess isolated.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2012, 08:23:28 pm »

1. Endless bureaucracy. Let no migrant go unseen. Use Therapist only if you must, true Dwarves work with the tools they're given.
2. Sacrifice industries. If you find yourself lacking in need of architecture or some such, it helps to get all the foundation work done by the 2nd year - and the following years you can spend filling said architecture with industry.
3. Build a military early on. Really, do. It helps keep peace of mind knowing your fort is safe as you build.
4. If you feel your fort seems a bit mundane, impose some restriction or find some challenge that requires alternate strategies - that in turn affect how your fort will grow/appear.

StLeibowitz

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2012, 09:20:31 pm »

In my experience, it's best to just never stop expanding. Dig bedrooms well in advance. Carve out areas for industries well before you have any need for them. Keep the miners mining, and the carpenters and masons churning out beds, doors, mechanisms, walls, etc.

Set up farms before there is any need to expand farms. Set any new migrants that you have no use for (i.e. fishermen in the middle of a desert) and have no appreciable military skills to work smoothing and engraving. Basically, minimize the number of idlers if there is any work at all for them to be doing. If your fort seems huge and empty, that is no excuse to stop building. The mountainhomes have plenty of fodder and cheesemakers looking for a new start, and your cavernous halls will provide that. An empty fort will not remain empty for long, unless it is truly empty due to magma-based fun or somesuch.
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Sutremaine

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2012, 09:27:00 pm »

3. Build a military early on. Really, do. It helps keep peace of mind knowing your fort is safe as you build.
Heck, just get a pair of dwarves wrestling or shield bashing before the first month is out. It's good for stat-building and for working on the shield, armour, and dodge skills. Weapon skill trains quite quickly once a squad is sparring on a regular basis, but the other ones are a lot slower. While you're doing that, work on your melee support. Twisty passages can be set up so that each goblin only sees your melee dwarves once they're right next to your entire military, and marksdwarves can provide support by firing on goblins as they navigate the passages. Just remember to pull them back if an elite marksgoblin shows up.

Bring some leather. Four pieces per dwarf for helm, armour, leggings, and shield, and one piece per three dwarves for waterskins.
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Lich180

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2012, 10:10:56 pm »

Honestly, even if I take time out to plan exactly how my fort will look, everything ends up being crammed into a few levels, while the rest is either useless space, mine tunnels, or abandoned projects. It turns into a mess of tunnels, dead ends, rooms with no use, and random crap that kills FPS.

This new fort, I'm trying to designate everything in advance, and slowly work my way through getting everything up and running. Helps that I'm trying to get a pumpstack up from the magma sea, through an aquifer.

But as to your topic: I bring a few military-minded dwarves, use them as miners then convert them to troops and get them training. After the first bit of mining is done (a little hole in the dirt) I get a farm, still, and beds / defenses operational. After that, it devolves from there into a chaotic, dwarfy mess.
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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 10:15:39 pm »

I generally make the social center of my fort a gigantic, engraved, often statued dining room.

As for getting everything engraved, remember that smoothed stone has no quality modifiers. Assign every useless dwarf you don't draft into the military to engraving and it'll go pretty quickly and they'll skill up enough to provide decent engravings.
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ab00

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2012, 11:44:22 pm »

For mac peoples:
I personally prefer MacNewbie, because unlike Dwarfbuilder, which is a 'set-it, forget it' kind of tool, it allows you to launch accessories and change tilesets without building a whole new application.

And to contribute to the topic, once I get the fort to a point where I can spare a few dwarfs, I'll just designate the entire fortress to be smoothed, and when they're done with that, they'll be legendary, and be ready to make masterwork engravings of cheese everywhere.

For the other parts, I usually start off with a plan to get some sort of "offensive" defence in place by the end of the first year.
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Oaktree

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2012, 02:55:28 am »

My early plan is simple - get the wagon unloaded into underground storage and also establish a elementary defense - drawbridge for entrance to underground and often a perimeter ditch (with drawbridge) to protect pasture space and an area to be worked in that is semi-secure.  (At least from ground attack.) A couple of chambers are temporarily used for sleeping quarters and eating/meeting.  Carpenter is busy early on knocking together some beds, a table, a chair, and a few bins. 

The miners have a large backlog of work.  Ditch, initial rooms in soil, and also getting down into stone since a few mechanisms and stone/block are needed for the bridges.  Then start carving out workshop spaces, farm plot space, more storage, and the beginnings of what will be the Depot and access tunnels.  Plus starting downward to see where the caverns and  Magma Sea might be.  If a cavern is hit, it is immediately walled back up.

As the miners carve out more space the other workers move in and start using it - mason, mechanic, craftdwarf (nestboxen!), etc.  all need space to work in and preferably it is safely underground.  Even the carpenter shop comes underground fairly soon.  From here the basic fortress layout starts to take shape.

And it is all more than seven dwarves can do.  The first migrant wave is simply absorbed into the workforce.  If a third pick is available (or a miner migrates in) another miner is added, otherwise they usually help out with masonry or mechanic work.  The second migrant wave is mostly the same unless it is quite large.  Even then there are still plenty of hauling tasks to move logs, stone, and blocks.

Passive defenses go in fairly quickly - ditch, drawbridges (even if not operational they are still choke points), walls, roofs, and traps (cage or weapon).  The entrance to the underground gets bunkered in fairly quickly - especially if the biome is very threatening or there is an aerial threat.

Active defense is a couple of dwarves with some weapon and shield skill.  Lightly armored, or possibly copper chain shirt, helm, and leggings.  Not going to stand off a goblin ambush that well, but often sufficient to handle some forms of local wildlife.  Their main job is keeping the camp somewhat defended until the ditch, drawbridge, and possibly entrance bunker are ready.   If weapon trained migrants show up and some armor and weapons can be assembled the force can be made larger. 

And, like posted above, once things get a bit stable, never stop expanding the facilities.  The population will arrive to fill it.  (If you're using a lower pop cap you can also usually design the fortress for something like the cap number plus twenty additional.  Babies and children don't count, so with a big last wave or two a pop cap of 80 can give you 100-110 adults and a number of additional children (I have that number capped fairly low as well - something like 20.)

The two main things I mess up are not designing my workshop space that efficiently - so I keep chopping out more rooms to add a bit of storage, or an additional workshop, or squeeze in space for a power shaft to go through.  The other is that I don't give myself a "slack" level every so often for later use.  Though I've learned to keep my footprint in the first level under the surface minimal if I can (unless it's the only soil level I have).  That level is very useful for surface related defenses - ditches, sally port tunnels, and with mine carts "barrels" for railgun installations. 
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DTF

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Re: How do you get such nice fortresses?
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2012, 05:06:46 am »

If you really just want a nice fort going and your DF survival and multi-tasking skills arent up to snuff yet:
Drop all the things and features that you do not need and that ultimately may distract you from the tasks you want to end up looking good.

Make a temporary fort that only contains the things you cannot live without. Use this as your base to plan and construct your dream fort next door.

Read Urist McSpikes post. Everything you REALLY need is written there:
1. Defense
2. Food
3. Sth. to trade (<- something means just enough, not Fort Knox in DF style!)
4. Happiness
(+ 5. Clothing)

With a few minor adjustments:
Food: You do not need lifestock to supply your dwarves. Thats the one thing I kind of dislike about DF:
you only ever need a handful of dwarves to feed your entire fortress off plants (6 dwarves dedicated to farming/brewing/cooking will easily provide for 100 other dwarves). Lifestock just means you need butchers, spinners, shearers, etc. to fully utilize your animals - but in the end, you just overproduce food. Hunting and fishing are also rather unnecessary. Just kill the occasional animal you buy or migrants bring. With only farming going on, you do not need to micro manage slauthering or babysit your suicidal hunter. Farming is a neatly automated process and with sufficient supply of plants, so is brewing and cooking.

As for the 3rd point, I'm not a fan of trade crafts - as you can easily make comparable profit with byproducts of your current fort (i.e. mechanisms and prepared meals).
Up until the first caravan, try to make valuable mechanisms f.ex. out of magnetite. One proficient mechanic can produce as much wealth in one job as a stone crafter in several. A single stack (which can be up to 80 items, sometimes even more) of masterwork roast is enough to buy all the essentials from a caravan.
That frees up your stone crafter to mine or engrave.

Dorms: Either stuff every bed in one room and and garnish it with expensive statues (or levers with mechanisms) or make your common 11x11 block and leave some temporary walls in for 1x3 rooms (bed, chest/cabinet and a door). Once your proper living quarters are dug out, you can remove all the beds and mine out the walls to get a fully usable 11x11 room.
Combine this with a few chairs, tables and statues for a dining hall. This works really well with the first starting 7 + 1st migrant wave:
Code: [Select]
#############
#b#b#b#b#b#b#
#F#F#F#F#F#F#
#d#d#d#d#d#d#
#...........#
#...........#
#...........# <---- poot dispens-... err I mean put dining room here
#...........#
#...........#
#d#d#d#d#d#d#
#F#F#F#F#F#F#
#b#b#b#b#b#b#
#############
This may not look 'nice', but it is very quickly dug out and set up so that you can focus entirely on that 33x33x4 massive grand dining hall you're imagining.
Every wave after that is usually superfluous and every migrant apart from really useful ones get to live in a big dormitory until everything else is finished.
Put the occasional masterwork furniture at high traffic areas, level up your cook, keep your dwarves safe and nothing but intentional idiocy on your part should cause the fort to become too unhappy.

Add luxury things like silk farms or porcelaine workshops as you go along and when you think you can afford to divert some focus from the 'grand plan'.

As a guideline, in my forts I usually end up living in 'base camp' for the first 2 years. Workforce is divided into 1/3 soldiers, about 1/4 miners, 2 masons, 1 carpenter, 4-6 food dwarves, 2 or 3 crafters for slabs and clothing, 2 mechanics. The remainder of the dwarves do on demand jobs.
After that, I gradually move into the new fort. And after that I start making fancy things (and get bored).

TLDR: STREAMLINE! If you really want your fort to be efficient and look good, you have to plan ahead.
The less things you have to focus on at the moment, the better you can plan ahead.
The better you plan ahead, the more efficient your future fort can be.
Once your fort runs smoothly, you can add more bling (make that soap factory you've always dreamt of).

Of course, the one thing noone can give you is experience. I've been playing DF for a couple of years already, so I may not even recognize some of the issues new players might have anymore.
Sadly, by now, I am so good at setting up invulnerable fortresses that I have to cause destruction intentionally to get a thrill. =(
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