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[Starver]

Because everyone (including me) was repeating the "It won't happen in cages" advice, here's a snippet of the transcript of DF Talk #18 that I was alluding to.

Toady:   We just put in the animal training stuff to replace the dungeon master.
[...snip animal familiarity details to general tame-training...]
so if you capture an animal in a cage and then you just move it to your animal stockpile or build the cage, building that little zoo, or whatever, you can go to your animal screen and the animal will appear there, if it is trainable;
[...snip a bit more to lead up to the point...]
So you've got a trainer, and it'll do this thing that it used to do, where you'd just grab a piece of food and go to cage and train the animal, but now the animal doesn't became tame unless you have a domesticated knowledge of it, or unless it's a young animal. Then it'll just get some level of training, and it uses the item quality symbols to denote how trained the animal is, so it can be masterfully trained, or just well trained, or just trained, or semi-wild. So then you can't train it any more from the cage, if you want to have this pet as a protector or a pet you have to let it out, and so it'll be wandering around.
[..snip enjoyable tale of woe...]
So we have all that training, and you can also select war and hunting training for various animals in the animal screen and that'll make the guy ... instead of reinforcement training, he'll do the specific training. You either need to have an animal training zone, once you let them wonder around, or if the animals in a cage or in a pasture you can train it [? ? ?]. Some people were having trouble figuring it out, you need a zone. I just posted that on the forum, too, so hopefully people see that, just to give them a place to do their training that doesn't get in people's way.

My emphases (bold, and bold-italics), and []-snips and that one "? ? ?" bit, that (as I read/heard it) seems to partly contradict the rest of the message, but could be a mis-speak.  (i.e., just in pastures?)

I suppose tracking down the bit that was mentioned as being already posted on the forum might firm matters, as well, but I can't ever remember seeing that, so no idea where to look for it, and suspect my Forum-Fu search capabilities are insufficiently Footkerchiefesque to so easily find it.


Knutor, yes, that's something I remember publicised in the release notes...  Offspring get auto-assigned to the mother's zone/cage, on birth, or similar.


(Just to further explain my practical inexperience in the matter, up until early .34 versions I was very much into collecting menageries, but since the very recent changes came in (that may not have affected my "traded as already tamed" animals, anyway) I've been eschewing everything but a small number of breeding/eating stock descended from my original embark creatures, while messing with other new fort aspects...)

[Garath]

food is only for taming and only from wild to whatever state you manage to get in one go

[greycat]

Starver, that quote is only talking about taming wild critters, not training war animals.  They work differently.  Taming wild animals happens in a cage.  Training war animals doesn't.

[Starver]

Erm...

I don't think you read it all, did you?

(I know, my fault for waffling.  I even snipped it down quite a lot, as much as I could without shredding it.  And then waffled, again, once the quote had finished...  Ah well, you probably never even saw that bit that was almost totally irrelevant to the point...)

Anyway, if you're still with me:

Toady:   animal training stuff to replace the dungeon master [...] capture an animal in a cage [...] grab a piece of food [...] it can be masterfully trained, or just well trained, or just trained, or semi-wild.  So then you can't train it any more from the cage, [...] So we have all that training,

[...]

you can also select war and hunting training for various animals in the animal screen [...] need to have an animal training zone, or [...] or in a pasture you can train it [...] Some people were having trouble figuring it out, you need a zone.

[greycat]

You're going around and around in circles, but I am 100% certain that I am correct, because I have actually played the game.

War training will not take place in a cage.

Your quote even FAILS TO MENTION CAGES IN THE BOTTOM PART WHERE IT IS TALKING ABOUT WAR TRAINING.

It only talks about cages in the TOP PART where it is discussing taming wild animals.

Plus, just because Toady said something in the past doesn't mean that the current version of the game works exactly like that thing he said umpteen months ago.  Because the game changes.

Except that he didn't actually say what you think he said in the first place.

So there we go, around and around in circles again.

[Garath]

People are mixing up taming and training all the time, allow toady to be a bit imprecise in his wording too, he's still human. Just accept from us that the first part is about taming wild animals (it says so, no surprise there) who then become 'trained' (or semi wild or.. well, you get the point).

The second part is giving animals extra training as war or hunting animal - and to reinforce taming. however, "reinforce taming" sounds bad and wait, the creatures are labeled as trained! So taming became training as well and that is how people can get confused.

[Snaake]

Yup.  I believe they generate a wee lil bit of xps for your trapper and tamer, if ya trap and tame small stuff, then stick em all in a cages in a zoo. 

I've been sticking the newly altered Kennel near the topside of the mass pit activity zone and full animal cage stockpile.  So the dorfs don't have to go far to tame the hamsters, ravens, toads, etc.. that show up there aswell. 

Just a heads up, each time you tame a vermin, it takes 1 food, from your stockpile.  Don't begin grinding up xps like this til your food supply is robust.  Sincerely, Knutor

What's the use of training vermin, other than xp? Let me rephrase that... I tried taming a vermin, and also bought an already-tamed one from the elves, to test out giving my dwarves pets. I ended up with 2 tame vermin, who I could only keep in animal traps or cages, but which never seemed to get adopted by any dwarves after I set them to available. Any advice?

[Laurin]

Build the cage in the room of the dwarf who likes the vermin. There he can admire it and get a happy thought.

[Starver]

You're going around and around in circles,

Either that or you are, probably because you got the wrong end of the wrong stick about what I was saying, and I'm messing up in trying to resolve the original misunderstanding...

War training will not take place in a cage.

Yes.  Which is what I've been saying all along.  Heck, I was even backing you up, after you'd said "let the dog out of the cage"...

Your quote even FAILS TO MENTION CAGES IN THE BOTTOM PART WHERE IT IS TALKING ABOUT WAR TRAINING.

It says "Some people were having trouble figuring it out, you need a zone." i.e., not-a-cage.  (I already suggested that the sole mention of cages in the bottom half, which I can see that you must have missed while in your ALLCAPS frustration-mode, was doubtless a slip or a reference to something else.)

Like I'd already pointed out (in the original quoting) the break between the tame-training and the job-training part of the explanation.  Even put line-feeds in, but it just looked to me as if you'd missed that distinction.  My further apologies for being unclear on that point, though.

As for the age of the comment, it was a recent quote (fairly so, 21/Apr/2012, post 34.06, regarding the changes that we are now (still) seeing).  Certainly, a review of the Devnotes indicates no announced changes to training (that I could see, may have missed something) in amongst all the cart-heavy addition notes and onwards, so I considered that a valid current comment.  If I'm wrong about that, I apologise and sincerely withdraw on that point.

Except that he didn't actually say what you think he said in the first place.

Well, that's always a possibility, except that I can't see where (except with the noted "[? ? ?]"-marked bit that I was suggesting was a slip of the tongue or a conflation of the various processes) he actually contradicts what I'm pretty sure you're saying.  It supports what you were saying.  Already backing you up on the "let the dog out of the cage" point, the quote was there to cement the facts you'd laid down.

But 'nuff said.  Leastwise, on my part.  I shall take with good grace any further critique on my communication skills and try to be more careful next time.  (Although there are no guarantees to that effect, I'm afraid.  I know how I am, you see...  Too many commas, and more problems besides.)