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Author Topic: What do you think of the English language?  (Read 22677 times)

Techhead

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #225 on: June 16, 2012, 06:15:00 am »

wast the original innsmouth located somewhere on great britain?

edit: oh right, i'm mixing it up with innsmouthanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
Offtopic/Trivia: Neil Gaiman wrote a short story in the Cthuthlu Mythos called "Shoggoth's Old Peculiar" that takes place in a British Innsmouth visited by an American tourist.
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Starver

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #226 on: June 17, 2012, 12:05:44 pm »

We even have place names in Welsh different to the English for places accross the border (Llundain for London), often reflecting the fact that the UK was Celtic before the Romans, Saxons and Normans came to play.

I think it'd be more correct to put that into the "Welshification" category, you mention next.  'Londinium' has been suggested as having Celtic origins, but many other sources (including pre-Celtic languages) are as likely, and the difference of the Welsh name from the current English name is so little I think there's a good argument that the divergence (one way or another) is fairly recent, making it likely to be English->Welsh in nature.

Certainly, for a significant amount of post-Roman history and probably also post-Saxon history (with various tensions in the landmass marking significant periods before "England" came to exist, as opposed to the multiple kindgdoms, rebooting the practice quite a bit until it may have stablised somewhat into the last thousand years or so), Welsh drovers would drive their livestock to places (including London) outside of Wales, and coming back again.  Saying something like "I've been to London" in Welsh would have probably have caused the something like the "Llundain" name to be known and understood within Wales, purely verbally, sometime prior to the first successful/popular attempt to set down the spoken language in writing.  At some point after literacy established a convention (whether amongst the masses, or just amongst the earliest chroniclers) it would have solidified into something like the form we see now.  Liverpool is certainly another (closer!) destination that would have had the same word-of-mouth transportation of its name into the Welsh heartland.

Something makes me want to imagine, BTW, that "Llundain" is something a little bit "Cymglish" in nature, making it a polar reverse of the Abermaw=>Barmouth mutation, the visiting Welsh (mis)translating in their own way. ;)


After 'travel writings' and knowledge of the wider world gained hold, names would largely no longer be distorted, so.  You can probably derive some interesting timeline-maps of what places were popularly known in what foreign locales by mapping the discrepancies with the local names.  As far as I know, New York is known as "New York", more or less worldwide, it having become so (after abandoning New Amsterdam or other variants beforehand).  Munich/Munchen is a mild example, and there's also the Milano/Milan and Roma/Rome examples of 'mild' Anglicisation.  Lesser-known places that got known only later (or much well more known ones that had already solidified in scholarly writings) are more likely to be known in English by their local names.  (If not pronounced exactly the same...  c.f. "Paris". ;)

(What I find interesting is how Deutschland/Germany/Allamange/etc is known, in each near-neighbour foreign language by the specific group of people that were known by the peoples that contributed their description to the modern-day.  Through the Romans, we and a number of other countries have a variant on "Germany", other countries name from the Alamanni tribe, or the Saxons, the Nemich(sp?) or, or course there's the local word that became "Deutsch"-ish.)  More far-afield nations will have been influenced by colonial/diplomatic exporting of a specific country's terminology.  I think Japan is rooted in Germany's own name, While Hawaii got inspired by the English.  Back to the Welsh, it's the Francophone name that came to influence them.)

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SealyStar

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #227 on: June 17, 2012, 02:32:38 pm »

(What I find interesting is how Deutschland/Germany/Allamange/etc is known, in each near-neighbour foreign language by the specific group of people that were known by the peoples that contributed their description to the modern-day.  Through the Romans, we and a number of other countries have a variant on "Germany", other countries name from the Alamanni tribe, or the Saxons, the Nemich(sp?) or, or course there's the local word that became "Deutsch"-ish.)  More far-afield nations will have been influenced by colonial/diplomatic exporting of a specific country's terminology.  I think Japan is rooted in Germany's own name, While Hawaii got inspired by the English.  Back to the Welsh, it's the Francophone name that came to influence them.)

Actually, the Proto-Slavic root of "Nemec" and its variants is not from a specific people, but rather a word meaning "dumb" (in the sense of "mute").
But you are right on the Japanese and Welsh words. In Japanese, Germany is "Doitsu". Welsh is "Almaenwr". I can't find any specific information on the Hawaiian word for German, but it wouldn't surprise me, given that the English were the first Europeans there.
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Reudh

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #228 on: June 17, 2012, 03:39:16 pm »

Japanese takes a lot of loan words- for example, the idea of part time work in Japan came from Germany - it's arubeito, or arbeit.

There's also a theory that floats around that the word tempura/tenpura is derived from Portuguese - a reference to how the Portuguese during (Sabbath? Lent?) would consume only fish, which was dipped in batter. I believe it was known as tempora.

Detonate

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #229 on: June 17, 2012, 05:12:15 pm »

I heard English is the most versatile language in the world.

But as if to balance that, it's utterly insane and being added onto by people with absolutely no clue what they're doin'.

' now = G, G.

Buffalo Buffalo Buffalo.

English is like a giant middle finger to the rest of the world saying "I can be utterly insane and still be more coherent than you!"


In America, it's mostly this, but with a whole lot of this:

But as if to balance that, it's utterly insane and being added onto by people with absolutely no clue what they're doin'.


To ruin all the good stuff.
All languages, especially English change. It has an immense number of peculiarities and variations. In the Middle Ages, there was the Great Vowel Shift, which is why English is so funny with pronunciation. There are some theories about it, one of them is because the Black Death killed off so many people that everyone moved up socially, changing how they speak. Another says that it was caused by political and social changes (hint hint, technology). And then, there's a theory saying that it was caused by people trying to sound more English, and not French. There's nothing wrong with people. changing how they speak, it's been around forever. English in a nutshell.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 05:15:06 pm by Detonate »
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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #230 on: June 30, 2012, 01:14:59 am »

What do I think of the English language? Well, I think that Buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo!

(Well, I think that bison from Buffalo, New York, bully bison from Buffalo that are themselves bullied by bison from Buffalo!)

Never before has it been so easy to create entirely new words that are entirely understandable, either. For example, I just creatified a word in this sentence.
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Hanslanda

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #231 on: June 30, 2012, 01:16:19 am »

I'm pretty sure you can be executed for this in Singapore.
...wat
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #232 on: June 30, 2012, 01:17:35 am »

I'm pretty sure you can be executed for this in Singapore.
...wat
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Hanslanda

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #233 on: June 30, 2012, 01:24:03 am »

Oh, I see. That makes much more sense now. :) Thanks.
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SealyStar

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #234 on: June 30, 2012, 07:02:25 am »

A few pages back, I saw a thing about learning Russian. To me, as a native English speaker, the clunky grammar is actually the easiest part. The part that gets me is the sheer insanity of the Cyrillic alphabet.

Also, why does every language seem to have its own unique way of pronouncing "r"? Especially French?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSRC6-XgSHo and portuguese? what does european portuguese sounds to foreigners?

Angry Spanish.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 07:58:13 am by SealyStar »
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Ancre

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #235 on: June 30, 2012, 10:14:12 am »

I haven't seen the "r" of french in many other languages really. Most of the time, the main "r" languages use is the one in front of the mouth with the tip of the tongue, similar to the english one. You start seeing the french "r" when you add more ways of making a r sound in your language, and even then sounds like the spanish j are more used than this one.

The "r" in french is really pronounced differently. It's made in the back of the tongue instead of in the front. If I remember well, we used to have a more common r, but it changed because of the influence of breton (which uses the french r as well). Don't quote me on that one though.

But it's true that all those r sounds different. I'm no linguist, but I'd say it's because it's one of the most adaptable sounds a language have, therefore it changes so it's easier to pronounce with the other sounds of the language.
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Starver

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #236 on: June 30, 2012, 11:11:10 am »

Also, why does every language seem to have its own unique way of pronouncing "r"? Especially French?

Oooohhhh  RRRRRrrrreeeennéééééé!!!!!![/AlloAllo]

But, seriously, look at the name of the Euro[1]...  Barely two countries among the Oyrow-tsone/Eyroo-sonne'/however-you-want-to-pronounce-"Eurozone" can agree on the vowels, never mind that single troublesome consonant.

Still, at least it's officially plural-as-the-singular, so no euros/euroen/etc. ;)



Yours,
From the Pound Sterling[2]-zone... ;)


[1] Properly "the euro", no capital[3]...  Must annoy the germans.  Sorry.  To the Germans, It must an Annoyance be. ;)

[2] GBP/UKP/£/#/Squids/etc...

[3] Very tempting to make another joke, there, but the fetenete are getting crowded...
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Ancre

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #237 on: June 30, 2012, 11:54:39 am »


Still, at least it's officially plural-as-the-singular, so no euros/euroen/etc. ;)


Yeah, right ! ;)
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scriver

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #238 on: June 30, 2012, 05:36:31 pm »

Swedish dialects has both kinds of R:s. And one kind that starts in the root and moves towards the front.
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Trollheiming

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Re: What do you think of the English language?
« Reply #239 on: June 30, 2012, 08:38:03 pm »

Hey RedKing,我的汉语老师 is from Shanghai, aswell. So I was just wondering how many years of learning chinese it takes to get to the point were you sound like you have shainghai accent?
It's more to do with vocabulary and intonation choices. For instance, asking where something is in Mandarin (Beijing standard dialect) is "zai nar", even though it's written "zai na". For most Mandarin speakers outside of Beijing, the "r" is there but not particularly strong. For a Beijing native, it's really pronounced, and nasalized so that it sounds (to me) like a stereotypical New Jersey accent.

In Shanghai, they tend to say "zai nali", which is much softer to the ear. So it's a difference in pronunciation, but also vocabulary, because nali uses different characters from na(r). I'd liken it to the difference between "Whereabouts are you located?" and "Where you at?" (with the Shanghai version being the more formal version).

Because I learned and heard and used zai nali first (and because the Beijing final -r thing grates on my nerves), I tend to use that form rather than "standard" (i.e. Beijing) Mandarin. So in that respect, if that's all a bystander had to go on, they might assume I learned Mandarin in Shanghai.

Actually, I can report that zai nali predominates in central China near Shanxi and Shaanxi, as well. I would say 哪里 is far more common than 哪儿 throughout China. All that erhua junk is really just a dongbei thing. Of course, not to imply that you'd understand my wife when she speaks her native Shanxihua instead of putonghua, but Beijinghua is really the black sheep of all Chinese dialects, despite being the "standard" politically.

Sorry to hear you speak with a Shanghai accent. The thing about Shanghai accents that makes them really ridiculous is the tendency to say zong instead of zhong, like communicating to a cabbie that you want to go to 中山路 and he can't understand. Hopefully you don't go that far into their madness. :D
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