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[Bohandas]

As it is now, people move TO your fortress, but nobody moves AWAY from it. I think this should be modified.

When a child reaches adulthood, or when an adult is chronically unhappy for a long enough time, there should be a chance that they will move away from the fortress.

[Jeoshua]

Been suggested a bunch of times.

I still support the idea.

Maybe kids could run away, too.  It happens in real life.  If Worldgen ever starts running after the world has been generated, maybe they even become a great hero after living on the streets as a gutter urchin for a while.  Or maybe they just get eaten.

[Waparius]

Perhaps when dwarves start getting unhappy, one or more should group together. The leader then has a meeting with the manager, demanding some improvements, lest the dwarves in their group leave, with a hefty stock of supplies, and maybe a wagon or two if they can get it.

Demands could include things like, "Increased patrols" if too many dwarves are being ambushed or thieves are making off with too many goods; better housing; higher-quality food (not just raw plump helmet with raw plump helmet, and not just dwarven ale to wash it down); more work of a given type, or perhaps enough time off that there's a party. This would give players more options when the fort's getting seriously upset. If you take the, "how can you leave when the drawbridge is up? HAH!" approach, the malingerers should stage a rebellion. Yes, even if there's a goblin siege - sneak them out the caverns.

Of course randoms should leave with the caravans when they get the chance.

[Nyan Thousand]

Yes. Unhappy dwarves should have to option of just leaving instead of causing a ruckus, and instead of tantrum spirals, we get mass desertions. Mite be cool, man.

[Revanchist]

In regards to myself  inexperienced players, we should have the option to toggle this is the init files. I agree though, not only would it add realism, cause less need for the mass slaughter devices (or more, your call), it would help players to adress the area's their fortress is lacking.

[weenog]

I like the idea of dwarves being able to leave, instead of turning into walking depression bombs.  However I do think there should be some consequence... they take a bunch of supplies and valuables with them, they burn stuff before they go, whatever.  If they just leave and there's no penalty to the player and the overall wellbeing of the fortress, that takes the fangs out of unhappiness and makes it pretty pointless to pay much attention to morale.

[Starver]

Something similar has been mentioned before[1].  After all, where did your Initial Seven come from?  And the (at least two) waves of subsequent hopeful immigrants to your own possibly benighted site.

It's also been postulated as a player-initiated "Hey, anybody want to go out and form a new colony?" question applied to the populace, but the pioneering spirit might well be more primaevally inspired by dissatisfaction with their native (or adopted) site's situation, and personal circumstance, than merely "doing their duty" or curious or adventurous or just being chosen by seemingly random lots...


[1] As with most things, of course.

[Waparius]

Dwarves taking stuff they own makes sense - hopefully shops will make a return by the time this comes up. Also, they take their families, or send for them later. Morale could also be tied to this, with dwarves feeling bad if their friends leave (or good if their enemies do...), thus increasing the likelihood that more of them will head out. Dwarven sociability could be a factor in this - dwarves who like making new friends could get a happiness boost from new migrants arriving. Even just the likelihood of taking one's family increases the problems of letting dwarves have families, though, just like the problem of spouse/friend death does currently...most dwarves should be upset if they don't have a family or friends and seek them out.

[Jeoshua]

Something similar has been mentioned before[1].  After all, where did your Initial Seven come from?  And the (at least two) waves of subsequent hopeful immigrants to your own possibly benighted site.

The starting 7 are created from whole cloth.  The following waves of immigrants, however, are taken from already existing populations of Dwarves from the Mountainhomes.  I know what you meant but... just couldn't let that slide without pointing out what's really happening.

[Starver]

Yup, s'right, but it does tie in with the "I have a successful mountainhome, now to settle a new fort!", idea, or the above converse of "I have an absolutely atrocious fort, where are all my skilled farmers, crasftsdwarfs and and miners going to!?!?".

[GreatWyrmGold]

A few things that should be taken into account when a dwarf is considering leaving:

Spoiler: 1. Social Position. (click to show/hide)

Obviously, nobles are unlikely to leave their current lifestyles, where they get to boss dwarves around and make an easy living with nice living conditions. This would, however, decrease as the noble drops in power--a bookkeeper or broker wouldn't be too much less likely than a normal dwarf to leave, but a count or mayor almost never would unless he ran out of subjects. Less obviously, jobs should play a part--or, rather, skills. If a dwarf's skills are only useful in a larger fortress--e.g, Xcrafters, soap-makers, smiths--then they're unlikely to leave unless their friends/family with better survivally skills are forming a group to leave; hunters and herbalists would probably be among the first to go, probably taking their militia/miner/woodcutter/etc friends with them.

Spoiler: 2. Group Composition. (click to show/hide)

Touched on above. Let's say that there's a group of friends (let's call them the GoFers), which are all displeased to some extent and for some reason. The GoFers' decision to stay or go depends on a variety of qualities of the group. Do they have enough herbalists, hunters, and so forth to keep fed? Do they have or can they get enough weapons and armor to stay protected? Will their crafting skills allow a nice, pleasant existance in their new home? How many of the group have ties to non-GoFers? (In this last case, convincing the non-GoFers to join the GoF's expedition would be possible.) And, of course, are the GoFers willing to uproot their lives in hopes of living somewhere better? These are questions that must be answered, especially the last. Of course, if conditions are bad enough that most of the GoFers are willing to leave, they'd likely be willing to leave a few content members behind, unless those were ones with vital skills.

Spoiler: 3. The Situation and Surroundings. (click to show/hide)

The question being answered here is, "Are things really bad enough that we're willing to brave all the kinds of dangers that the outside world has to offer?" This, obviously, depends on two things: How bad things are in the fortress, and how dangerous the outside world is. Good and/or benign regions, with their more inoffensive wildlife and such, would be more attractive for emmigrants to leave from, as opposed to he obvious dangers of evil and/or savage areas. Enemy invasions are also worth considering; if there's a lot of sieges or ambushes this time of year, and the group doesn't have a large military presence, it's improbable that they'd leave. (If they did, there should be a chance that any siegers/ambushers coming would encounter the emmigrants. This would likely lead to several siegers carrying gear from the fallen dwarves.) Emmigrants will never leave during a siege. If the surroundng landscape is barren of easily edible plants or animals, the dwarves would be unlikely to leave. Finally, in some circumstances, the presence of a nearby sanctuary (i.e. another mountainhome, a friendly forest retreat, in desperate circumstances an abandoned town, etc) would lead dwarves to head there rather than striking it out in the wilderness. This would also relieve pressures against going for whatever reason--e.g, who cares that the wilderness doesn't have any food/we don't have any herbalists/our defenses would be inadequate? We're only going to be out of the sight of civilization for a day!

Spoiler: 4. Personality. (click to show/hide)

It should really go without saying. This is here to remind people of the obvious and to speculate on some less-obvious ways personality could affect dwarves. For instance, adventurous dwarves would obviously be willing to leave faster, but might also leave if the fortress gets dull too fast. Both dwarves who can deal with hardships and dwarves who can't would be willing to stay or unable to leave, so the first to go would be those in the middle. Gregarious dwarves would go if most of their friends were going. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head that aren't horribly obvious.

Spoiler: 5. Other Emmigrants. (click to show/hide)

Obvious? No, because of its subtlety. First off, dwarves would need to think: Why is the fortress so bad that I want to leave it? If it has to do with underprotectedness or something, the emmigrating groups would naturally draw other dwarves in, but if it has to do with shortages of critical supplies, they'd be more likely to stay--"There'll be enough ale to go around once those wastes-of-space are gone!" Another thing to consider is the specific dwarves leaving--if most of the farmers are heading out, a lot of other dwarves would want to go with them. Finally, as others have mentioned, relationships with emmigrating groups would matter a lot. If people you have grudges with are going, you won't want to; if friends, children, or especially lovers/spouses are going, you'll want to. The flip side is true too; if people you have grudges with are staying, you'll be more likely to join the Emmigration Train. This could lead to interesting situations, for instance if one of a pair of lovers wants to leave and the other wants to stay. Sounds like fuel for trashy dwarven romance novels, no?

That's all can think of right now.

[NW_Kohaku]

Toady has actually already said that he wants a mechanic for this to happen, and that it's unrealistic that dwarves would be so utterly committed to a fortress that they'd stick around on a ship that's obviously sinking. 

Although, from the way he talks about it, I get the impression it's basically only around the time you have a tantrum spiral that people start actually fleeing.

[Footkerchief]

"Emigration" is an extremely popular suggestion:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108451.0 (less than a month old)
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=3241.0
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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47674.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49023.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21715.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=6136.0

Spoiler: tags (click to show/hide)

emigrate emigrates emigration emigrant emigrants