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Author Topic: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum  (Read 27658 times)

Courtesy Arloban

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #195 on: May 30, 2012, 09:11:19 pm »

I don't see exactly what your point is. All of your sources point to platinum being found with impurities of other platinum group metals as a general rule, except wikipedia but our discussion has advanced beyon the point were that is a reliable source. Then you just say you linked us to were you can buy a pure platinum nugget, but it is .6cm x .6cm x .4cm. That's hardly enough to make a necklace out of, let alone furniture. Also that nugget looks like it has been cut and proccessed, nature doesn't normally create a .6cm x .6cm x .4cm pure platinum nuggets with entirelly straight lines.
I posted those sources to be fair. I had previously posted links to mindat, and other scientific sources that say yes platinum can be found pure, which led to links where you can buy a pure platinum nugget.

I apologize to everyone who points out how small it is, it's just that not every metal comes in huge boulder sizes like gold does! http://www.akmining.com/mine/nuggets.htm http://www.blackcatmining.com/reference/largest-nugget.cfm  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic
Okey, here are some of your sources from this page and quotes from them.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/platinum.aspx, (from extraction section)Extraction "The major challenge in obtaining pure platinum is separating it from other platinum metals. The first step in this process is to dissolve the mixture in aqua regia. Platinum dissolves in aqua regia, and other platinum metals do not."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/464081/platinum-Pt, (from the third paragraph)"The ordinary variety of native platinum is called polyxene; it is 80 percent to 90 percent platinum, with 3 percent to 11 percent iron, plus the other platinum metals, and gold, copper, and nickel. For mineralogical properties, see native element (table). Platinum is also found in the very rare native alloy platiniridium. Platinum occurs combined with arsenic as sperrylite (PtAs2) in the copper–nickel-mining district near Sudbury, Ont., and with sulfur as cooperite (PtS) in the Transvaal. (For information about the mining, recovery, and production of platinum, see platinum processing.)"

These clearly contradict platinum commonly being found as a pure metal.

I posted those sources to be fair. I had previously posted links to mindat, and other scientific sources that say yes platinum can be found pure, which led to links where you can buy a pure platinum nugget.
(One repeat deserves another)
http://minmag.geoscienceworld.org/content/68/6/871.abstract
The chemical composition ranges from Pt2.64Fe1.00 to Pt2.88Fe1.00 with Os, Ru, Ir, Rh and Pd below the analytical detection limit of the electron microprobe. X-ray diffractometry of Pt-Fe crystals suggests a F-centred cubic lattice, characteristic of ferroan platinum.

"below the analytical detection limit" is the same as saying "not above the analytical detection limit".  The "analytical detection limit" is the point the machine is able to detect.  The machine being an electron microprobe the spatial resolution is approximately 100 to 200 nm.  http://probelab.geo.umn.edu/electron_microprobe.html  In fact the reason for the small sample size is that the microprobe can not be used on a sample larger than 10-30 cubic micrometers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_microprobe  Here's how you write the findings:
Pt 2.64 - 2.88 ppm : +/-1% error
Fe 1.00 ppm : +/-1% error
Os ppm <LOD : +/-1% error
Ru ppm <LOD : +/-1% error
Ir ppm <LOD : +/-1% error
Pd ppm <LOD : +/-1% error
** +/- 1% of the 100 - 200 nm not 1% of the ppm **
"stream sediments of the Darya river in the Aldan Shield, Russia" the desription of the locale below.
http://www.mindat.org/loc-72435.html

http://www.fabreminerals.com/search_show.php?SECTION=RSFSU&CODE=TC16N9
"We analyzed it and it is pure Platinum" "Konder mine, Aldan shield, Ayan-Maya, Khabarovskiy Kray  Russia"
http://www.mindat.org/loc-4435.html
"In the central depression of the massif located alluvial placier, which is in operation since 1984 with PGE resources ~60 tons. Last time this placier producing ~5 tons of PGM per year"

http://www.mindat.org/min-1509.html  ferroplatinum is also found in that deposit and in other locales
http://www.mindat.org/loc-29106.htmlhttp://www.geoscience.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=428&Itemid=448http://minmag.geoscienceworld.org/content/70/1/83.abstract?sid=806a42e1-b5ad-4032-b4de-d5371fc9a1f4http://minmag.geoscienceworld.org/content/66/6/857.abstract?sid=806a42e1-b5ad-4032-b4de-d5371fc9a1f4

http://www.dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=*&Query=platinum  "occurring native or alloyed with other metals and also as the platinum arsenide (sperrylite). "
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 09:36:11 pm by Courtesy Arloban »
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Arkenstone

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #196 on: June 01, 2012, 10:31:18 am »

All right then, help me find some more information about this "Ferroan Platinum"  --such as if there is more than one type/purity, what the mean and mode levels of impurities are, where it tends to occur, and the means by which it may be refined.  Then, if it turns out that pure, dwarf-usable deposits occur consistently under certain conditions it can be included in the suggestion.

I'll need some better sources though.  Of the ones you provided, the majority where from the same two websites and pertained to the same two mining areas.  In fact, several of those 'evidencing' the existence of Ferroan Platinum in multiple locations had absolutely nothing to with Ferroan Platinum, and cannot be accessed beyond their abstract besides.  Even the mere existence of Ferroan Platinum in a dwarf-smeltable form at the complex in question (Bushveld in South Africa) is questionable, as the source mindat.org references 404's while additional research leads me to believe the ores mined there are not native metals.

As for the alluvial deposits in the Aldan Shield region in Russia, I haven't been able to uncover any further data yet, corroborating or conflicting.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 10:36:03 am by Arkenstone »
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Courtesy Arloban

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #197 on: June 01, 2012, 04:01:50 pm »

These are some mechanical properties that even though they are for man made alloys, may be useful for alchemy metals.

http://hcrosscompany.com/precious/platirid.htm
Annealed Condition     
    90/10 Plat Iridium   80/20 Plat Iridium
Density   21.53 g/cc   21.61 g/cc

Mechanical Properties
Ultimate Tensile Strength   55,100 PSI   100,000 PSI
Electrical Resistivity   .000025 ohm-cm   .000031 ohm-cm
Hardness Brinell   130   200

The alloy 90/10 plat iridium, containing 10 per cent iridium, has very good all round manufacturing characteristics: it can be cast, welded, machined and stamped; it is ductile and malleable; can be hardened through working; and does not readily oxidize. Because of these advantages 90/10 Plat Iridium has traditionally been one of the most important jewelry alloys used in the USA, although there has recently been a swing toward alloys of 95/5 Plat Iridium.

http://www.platinumguild.com/files/pdf/V13N3_features_benefits.pdf
Effect of Adding Alloying Elements to Platinum
When a pure metal is alloyed with one or more metals, changes to the properties of pure metal occur. This
depends on the metal added and the percentage of metal(s) added. The following common properties
change:
1. Melting Point (pure metal has single melting point, alloy has both solidus (temperature at which
melting starts) and liquidus temperature (temperature at which the alloy is completely molten).
The melting range of an alloy is a consideration in the selection of alloy for processes like
investment casting.
2. Density (alloy becomes “heavier or lighter” depending on the density and amount of the alloying
elements)
3. Color (as the percentage of alloying elements increases, the original color of Platinum can change
depending on the alloying element)
4. Hardness or Mechanical Strength (hence wear resistance) – Alloys are always harder than pure
metal in the annealed condition. Hardness or strength of the alloy can be further increased by cold
work or age hardening if applicable.
5. Electrical and Thermal Properties (Alloying reduces electrical and thermal conductivity)
6. Corrosion Resistance (Tarnish resistance, oxidation resistance, resistance chemical attacksdepending
on the alloying element and its levels, this can either be improved or reduced)
7. Magnetic Properties (Appropriate additions of ferro magnetic element like Cobalt can result in
desirable magnetic properties)
8. Cost of the components of the alloy (the inherent cost of the alloy can be higher or lower than
Platinum depending on the amount and nature of the elements added.
Typical commercially used Platinum base alloys contain up to 25% of the alloying elements.
Table 1, for example compares some of the physical and mechanical properties of different common
Platinum alloys in which alloying element is 5%. Some of the alloys in this group are chosen for jewelry
applications as this level of alloying still allows the material to be hallmarked as Platinum jewelry.

Material Solidus Temperature°C Liquids Temperature°C DensityGm/CC Annealed HardnessHV Annealed Tensile StrengthPSI Mpa Hard HsrdnessHV Hard Tensile StrengthPSI Mpa
Platinum 100% 1770 1770 21.45 40 27000 185 100 55000 380
Pt-5% Cobalt 1750 1765 20.02 135 64000 440 - 100000 690
Pt-5% Copper 1740 1750 20.05 90 55000 380 - 82000 565
Pt-5% Gold 1700 1760 21.33 90 50000 345 - 65000 450
Pt-5% Iridium 1780 1790 21.50 80 39000 275 150 69000 475
Pt-5% Nickel 1750 1760 20.04 135 65000 450 - 103000 710
Pt-5% Palladium 1750 1760 20.64 70 37000 255 125 - -
Pt-5% Rhodium 1790 1820 20.70 70 38000 260 140 78000 540
Pt-5% Ruthenium 1780 1795 20.67 130 60000 415 230 110000 760
Pt-5% Tungsten 1790 1800 21.33 140 78000 540 240 120000 825

Platinum–Copper Alloys: Platinum with 3% Copper is used in certain jewelry applications in Europe.
Platinum–Gold Alloys: Alloy containing 5% gold is used in the manufacture of laboratory crucible due to
their non wetting properties to glass and mechanical strength.

Platinum–Iridium Alloys: Alloy containing 5% Iridium is used in Jewelry for casting of parts. However, it
has lost popularity due to the lack of strength in the as-cast condition. In some applications, alloy
containing 10% Iridium also used in Jewelry for casting of parts though this alloy cannot be “hallmarked”.
Castability is similar to Platinum – 5 Ruthenium. Platinum alloys containing 10-20% Iridium are used in
making medical components due to their strength, biocompatibility and corrosion resistance. Platinum
alloys with 10-20 % Iridium are finding use in aerospace industry recently as aerospace component again
making use of the strength and corrosion resistance. Platinum alloys containing up to 20% Iridium are used
as spark plug material

Platinum–Rhodium Alloys: Platinum–Rhodium alloys are used in many different industrial applications.
Alloys containing up to 20% Rhodium are commonly used as components in the manufacture of glasses.
Alloys containing 10% Rhodium with small% of Zirconium oxide or yttrium oxide (as grain stabilizer) are
also used in the glass industry. Different Platinum–Rhodium alloys containing up to 30% Rhodium are
used in the manufacture of thermo couples to measure temperatures. Platinum Rhodium alloys are used as
catalyst in the manufacture of chemicals. Platinum- Rhodium alloys are used as heating elements for
furnaces. Platinum–Rhodium alloys are also finding some selective application in aerospace industry.
Platinum–Rhodium alloy system is not chosen for application of Jewelry probably due to the volatility of
the price of Rhodium as well as its availability plus minimal hardening effect of Rhodium in Platinum–5%
Rhodium Alloys.

Platinum–Ruthenium Alloy Systems: Alloy containing 5% Ruthenium is the choice of jewelry industry in
the production ring blanks, findings parts and other components. It is used to investment cast jewelry parts
as well. However, casting is more difficult than with Platinum–5 Cobalt. It does not fill as well and has a
greater tendency to form micro porosity. It is the most versatile of the 950 Platinum alloys and is usually
the alloy of choice when a manufacture or jeweler wants to have only a single alloy to avoid crosscontamination.
This alloy is available from suppliers in different forms (sheet, wire, tube and grains) to
satisfy the needs of Jewelry industry. Ruthenium addition leads to high degree of hardening effect in this
alloy and satisfies the wear/scratch resistance needs. As the use of application of this alloy increases in the
Jewelry industry, studies are done to understand the machinability of this alloy compared to common karat
gold alloys. Alloys containing up to 10% Ruthenium are used as electrical contacts.

http://www.deringerney.com/materials/PlatinumandPalladiumAlloys.asp
Composition % by Weight  Density T.O./cu.in.  Hardness Range R 15T Scale  Tensile Strength x 1000 PSI  Electrical Conductivity % IACS  Melting Point F 
99.9 min Pt 11.30 60 - 75 20 - 35 15 3215
95 Pt, 5 Ir 11.33 71 - 86 40 - 70 9 3220
90 Pt, 10 Ir 11.34 87 - 92 55 - 90 7 3250
85 Pt, 15 Ir 11.36 90 - 95 75 - 120 6 3270
80 Pt, 20 Ir 11.40 93 - 97 100 - 145 5 3299
95 Pt, 5 Ru 11.90 84 - 89 60 - 115 5 3227
89 Pt, 11 Ru 11.45 91 - 96 85 - 150 4 3260
99.9 min Pd 6.31 62 - 78 28 - 47 16 2825
95 Pd, 5 Ru 6.32 79 - 89 54 - 75 8 2900
90 Pd, 10 Ru 6.34 84 - 92 70 - 100 6 3000
72 Pd, 26 Ag, 2 Ni 6.08 82 - 90 68 - 100 4 2520
60 Pd, 40 Ag 5.98 65 - 91 54 - 100 4 1440

http://www.weddingbandsuperstore.com/platinfo.html
http://www.bookrags.com/research/osmium/
There is some disagreement about whether osmium or iridium is denser.

How pure does platinum have to be to be called "Pure"? My sources disagree:

http://www.diamondcuttersintl.com/a-platinum-primer/
2. How can I tell if the jewelry I’m buying is platinum?

It’s relatively easy to check to see if the jewelry you’re buying is, indeed, platinum. All platinum jewelry sold in the U.S. must be stamped with a common quality mark that shows the percentage of platinum used in the alloy. These marks are, most commonly: Platinum, Plat, or Pt followed by the percentage of platinum used, for example: Pt1000 (pure platinum), Pt999 (999 parts per thousand platinum and one part other metal).

Other common platinum alloys are: 950Pt (or 950Plat or Pt950) which is 950 parts per thousand platinum and 50 parts other metals; 900Pt (or 900Plat or Pt900) which is 900 parts per thousand platinum and 100 parts other metals; and 850Pt (or 850Plat or Pt850) which is 850 parts per thousand platinum and 150 parts other metals.

http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/articles/2004/aug04/0804fys.html
Platinum is 90%-95% pure

http://www.answers.com/topic/platinum#ixzz1wZYSJGj4

Small amounts of iridium are commonly added for a harder, stronger alloy that retains platinum's advantages. Platinum is found usually as alloys of 8090 purity in placer deposits or more rarely combined with arsenic or sulfur. It is indispensable in high-temperature laboratory work for electrodes, dishes, and electrical contacts that resist chemical attack even when very hot. Platinum is used in dental alloys and surgical pins; alloys typically containing 9095 platinum are used in expensive jewelry.

I don't know if someone is changing the wikipedia article back and forth since it is user editable so i'll add another source.

From what I've found while searching the history, no, nobody appears to be changing it back and fourth.
I asked because it seems to be a different article other people are reading.


In order to clear up some confusion:

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_metal
A native metal is any metal that is found in its metallic form, either pure or as an alloy, in nature.

Therefore "native platinum" does not necessarily mean "pure platinum".  So while many sources may use the term "native platinum" without mentioning any impurities, the weight of evidence indicates that platinum is never found in pure form in nature.

When a native metal is an alloy it has it's own name distinct from the element, for example Native Bronze, Ferroan Platinum, IridPlatinum, Osmiridium and FerroNickelPlatinum are all native metals.  They don't do that for the impurities though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmiridium
http://www.mindat.org/min-4883.html
http://www.mindat.org/min-785.html

The formula used to make Bronze currently in dwarf fortress would make a terrible bronze called bell metal.  However I've yet to find a way to hyperlink to my textbooks.

All right then, help me find some more information about this "Ferroan Platinum"  --such as if there is more than one type/purity, what the mean and mode levels of impurities are, where it tends to occur, and the means by which it may be refined.  Then, if it turns out that pure, dwarf-usable deposits occur consistently under certain conditions it can be included in the suggestion.

I'll need some better sources though.  Of the ones you provided, the majority where from the same two websites and pertained to the same two mining areas.  In fact, several of those 'evidencing' the existence of Ferroan Platinum in multiple locations had absolutely nothing to with Ferroan Platinum, and cannot be accessed beyond their abstract besides.  Even the mere existence of Ferroan Platinum in a dwarf-smeltable form at the complex in question (Bushveld in South Africa) is questionable, as the source mindat.org references 404's while additional research leads me to believe the ores mined there are not native metals.

As for the alluvial deposits in the Aldan Shield region in Russia, I haven't been able to uncover any further data yet, corroborating or conflicting.
http://heliodor1.jodoshared.com/mineral.aspx?id=4357 looks like a metal, can't tell since it has a gold coating.  Comes from the same place though, which I had noticed as well.
http://www.raremineralshop.com/mineralirari/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=3192
http://goldnuggetsales.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=789

 The abstract sources of samples originally came from this post:
I've found another source that seems to imply there are other platinum-group metals in this "Ferroan Platinum", albeit in trace amounts.  It remains to be seen if these levels are negligible or not.

Here's a sample not as pure, though with 77.5% platinum 22.5% iron I find the math odd.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25539818?uid=3739896&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=47699056512417

As to purity in general, every mineral varies:
But Chabaneau's experiments puzzled him. Sometimes the platinum he worked with could be hammered into flat plates easily. At other times, it was brittle and shattered when hammered. Chabaneau did not realize that the "platinum" he was studying included various amounts of other noble metals.
Which is probably why they scan samples with electron microprobes.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 04:07:26 pm by Courtesy Arloban »
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byrnsey

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #198 on: June 01, 2012, 06:04:17 pm »

I hope I'm not going over old ground here, I tried reading through most of that.

We have magnetite (lodestone), we have copper, we have pump operation (mostly useless as a labor, training a military doesn't count).  Why not have the dwarves electrolytically separate bauxite?  The action of an electromagnetic generator (this rock moves near this metal)  isn't all that complicated, and a race with as big a hardon for metallurgy and geology as the dwarves would probably have hit it before we did.

It would require a new workshop and a few new reactions, but that would be about it.  If we're concerned about the BTU output of a dwarf, remember that legendary wrestlers punch people into *pieces*.  Make the process as long and involved as strand extraction.  Aluminum/platinum could be the "furniture steel".  Very valuable, you just need a ton of raw material (multiple charcoals/lumps of bauxite) and dwarven labor.

Also magma doesn't melt steel.  Barely gets it soft.  Among a lot of other metals.  As long as we're talking about realism in this game where dwarves shoot kobold bone arrows at necromantic magicians and dinosaurs made of mud.

Until there's a reasonable chance of getting aluminum, we should at least turn off preferences for it.  Tired of mayors going bonkers because they want a metal unknown to dwarven-kind.
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Mr. Palau

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #199 on: June 01, 2012, 06:39:44 pm »

Confirmed the source from Kondyor Massif, multiple times in fact. (sorted in order of superiority) http://atlasobscura.com/place/kondyor-massif http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=8773 http://my.opera.com/nielsol/blog/2008/07/01/kondyor-massif

Have yet to confirm other source. Seems like this occure under very unique geological conditions.
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Vattic

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #200 on: June 02, 2012, 05:00:22 am »

Kondyor Massif is really quite interesting. Intrusions are something that weren't added to the Aboveground Diversity Megathread.

I'd be more positive about keeping platinum if it only showed up in fairly unique geological features like this but that's not possible right now. If intrusions do get added then we should add some of the other unique minerals found like the Konderite found at the Kondyor Massif. It would make about as much sense to add Konderite all over our maps as it would to keep native platinum as it is from what I understand.
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Arkenstone

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #201 on: June 04, 2012, 01:06:51 am »

Ok, just got back and haven't had enough time to read Courtesy Arloban's post in-depth; I'll do so on the morrow.


To answer byrnsy's question:
Dwarves aren't going to be doing any electrolysis anytime soon for the same reason they won't be getting caplock rifles: it's waaay outside the tech range.  Some technologies can be included because they're cool and are theoretically possible, but it's pretty hard to justify electricity as 'dwarfy'.  (Plus, you'd have to put a lot more tech in to justify that much knowledge about electricity -not to mention the knowledge needed to produce enough of it.  You'd need an electric generator to make that much, which would imply electric motors...)


Skimming Mr. Palau's source, I'd think it would be very reasonable to add the mineral "Kondorite" that's an ore of copper, platinum and lead which can be smelted normally; of course I'll have to look closer to be sure.
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

Mr. Palau

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Re: A Realism Fix for Platinum and Aluminum
« Reply #202 on: June 06, 2012, 04:53:43 pm »

So I take it no one has confirmed his other source yet? other source as in the other source for the platinum.
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