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[RedKing]

So as I'm perusing the Legends for a newly-created world, I stumble across the following battle:

Osush Kom, "The Clashes of Throwing"

A: 1989, mostly humans, no losses
D: 7 goblins, 2 trolls, 8 losses

Attacker was victorious.
In the midspring of 243, The Scorching Confederacies attacked The Evil Deceiver in The Auburn Swamps. The human Stathra Muletrumpets led the attack, and the defenders were led by the goblin Zom Sprinkledmaligned the Weathered Bridle of Apogees.

A quick glance at the individual records shows that this was Zom's first fight of any kind as far as I can tell (he didn't start scouting for his civ until 236). And he's the lone survivor.
Two years later....

Necikarist, "The Singed Assault"

A: 2417, mostly dwarves, 2191 losses
D: 5 goblins, 2 trolls, 6 losses

Defender was victorious.

In the late summer of 245, The Mountainous Ships attacked The Horror of Servants of The Evil Deceiver at Roofpoisons. The dwarf Feb Clasphandled led the attack, and the defenders were led by the goblin Zom Sprinkledmaligned the Weathered Bridle of Apogees.

So...two years after being the sole survivor of a curbstomp battle against nearly 2000 humans, our little buddy Zom is the sole survivor of an epic reverse curbstomp against 2400+ dwarves, single-handedly killing every single dwarf he came across (including the dwarven queen, ending her line). All *after* having his lips torn off by a goblin in the dwarven army.

Further research shows that he was just following in a grand tradition of his civ. His predecessor, Ngoso Hateconjures the Killer of Embraces, only began serving her civ in 231. She then fended off an attack by the Scorching Confederacies in 232:

A: 1816 humans, 86 goblins, 80 elves, 1721 losses
D: 4 goblins, 2 trolls, 5 losses

She met her end against the dwarves in 234 (to a cave crocodile, no less):

A: 2361, mostly dwarves, 1924 losses
D: 5 goblins, 2 trolls, all lost

Ngoso finished up with 49 notable kills and 3608 other kills. She also maimed the dwarven queen (the one that Zom killed) by ripping off one arm.
Zom is still alive and has 23 notable kills and 2168 other kills.

And this isn't even their capital. The civ capital has been untouched by war and is ruled by a charcoal devil with a measly 4 kills.

The site itself, Roofpoisons, has a long and bloody history:
Built by Goblin Civilization #1 in the year 43.
Sacked (undefended vs. 216 humans) in 71.
Sacked (undefended vs. 1681 humans) and the civ destroyed in 150.
Reclaimed by Goblin Civilization #2 in 176.
Sacked (1 goblin vs. 3295 mixed army, 45 losses) and the civ destroyed in 178.
Reclaimed by Goblin Civilization #3 (the one Zom and Ngoso belonged to) in 230.
Sacked in 234 (when Ngoso died), but now watched over by a lipless Zom and his 49 goblin brethren.

So basically, this site had never had more than a handful of defenders, against massive armies of humans and dwarves. Only this time Goblin Civilization #3 has apparently unlocked their "innate badass" trait, because they keeping finding these champions with no real battle experience who manage to single-handedly take on huge armies. I think I'm going to have to visit Roofpoisons in adventure mode, just to hopefully catch a glimpse of Zom Sprinklemaligned (before he facepunches me halfway across the map).

[thvaz]

This should be in the bug tracker. These numbers need a serious tweak.

[tolkafox]

This...is...ROOFPOISON!

Maybe Zom is really a cat brute demon?

[Flying Dice]

"He was the hero we needed..."

[RedKing]

I kinda picture Roofpoisons as being the Goblin Shaolin monastery. Empires have come to destroy it, only to be defeated by a lone warrior. Ngoso was the Goblin-Fu master, and Zom spent those two years after the initial battle in an extended training montage, learning the dreaded Armok's Palm technique.

[Yoink]

This should be in the bug tracker. These numbers need a serious tweak.

No... Not really. Quite apart from Zom being a superbadass, Worldgen battles at this time consist of the two opposing forces lining up facing each other, then each sending one warrior out to do battle until they die, replacing them with another and so on until one side has no soldiers left. So basically a giant one-on-one duelling tornament to decide the fate of the pile of mouldy zombie kobolds in the sewer.

[thvaz]

This should be in the bug tracker. These numbers need a serious tweak.

No... Not really. Quite apart from Zom being a superbadass, Worldgen battles at this time consist of the two opposing forces lining up facing each other, then each sending one warrior out to do battle until they die, replacing them with another and so on until one side has no soldiers left. So basically a giant one-on-one duelling tornament to decide the fate of the pile of mouldy zombie kobolds in the sewer.

This is worst than a bug then. It is a flawed feature.

[Di]

This should be in the bug tracker. These numbers need a serious tweak.

No... Not really. Quite apart from Zom being a superbadass, Worldgen battles at this time consist of the two opposing forces lining up facing each other, then each sending one warrior out to do battle until they die, replacing them with another and so on until one side has no soldiers left. So basically a giant one-on-one duelling tornament to decide the fate of the pile of mouldy zombie kobolds in the sewer.

This is worst than a bug then. It is a flawed feature.

It will change soon, war system improvements are planned in this decade.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Once worldgen gets to a certain point, those civs who are enemies (dwarves and goblins, dwarves and elves, humans and goblins, elves and goblins...) will end up with one side having a HUGE numbers advantage over the other. The smaller, weaker civ will then be prone to having heroic goblins/dwarves/etc who end up superpowerful warriors. Battles currently work by sending two random soldiers from the armies against each other, then pitting the survivor against a random member of the other army, and so on. This means that an experienced warrior can easily defeat armies of less-skilled, weaker, and/or worse-equipped foes.

[darkflagrance]

No... Not really. Quite apart from Zom being a superbadass, Worldgen battles at this time consist of the two opposing forces lining up facing each other, then each sending one warrior out to do battle until they die, replacing them with another and so on until one side has no soldiers left. So basically a giant one-on-one duelling tornament to decide the fate of the pile of mouldy zombie kobolds in the sewer.

This is worst than a bug then. It is a flawed feature.

It will change soon, war system improvements are planned in this decade.
[/quote]

I'm kind of curious what superior auto-resolve algorithm Toady has planned for world-gen battles that both provides satisfactory outcomes and doesn't lag worldgen to hell and back. This is a problem I'm personally interested in solving.

[BurnedToast]

No... Not really. Quite apart from Zom being a superbadass, Worldgen battles at this time consist of the two opposing forces lining up facing each other, then each sending one warrior out to do battle until they die, replacing them with another and so on until one side has no soldiers left. So basically a giant one-on-one duelling tornament to decide the fate of the pile of mouldy zombie kobolds in the sewer.

This is worst than a bug then. It is a flawed feature.

It will change soon, war system improvements are planned in this decade.

I'm kind of curious what superior auto-resolve algorithm Toady has planned for world-gen battles that both provides satisfactory outcomes and doesn't lag worldgen to hell and back. This is a problem I'm personally interested in solving.

It seems to me that it wouldn't be THAT hard to just allowed outnumbered civs to gang up on whoever they are attacking. So for example, if there's 3 humans and one goblin, the humans get to attack him 3 times before he attacks back (using whatever rules worldgen combat uses now). It does not seem like it would be significantly laggier then what we have now, and in fact might end up faster (because wars would be over much, much quicker).

Of course there should be some limit, like say 10 on one, because 2,000 humans can't really all dogpile on one poor troll, but being outnumbered should be very bad for the guys with less men. Heck, if toady wanted to get fancy he could even make something like leadership effect this - so say you've got a dabbling leader with 2000 humans vs a legendary leader with 100 goblins, maybe they fight 1 on 1 anyway like it is right now, to represent better positioning, logistics, etc.

then again I know almost nothing about coding and nothing about how worldgen fights are handled (other then being 1v1), so maybe it would be harder then I think.

[Di]

No... Not really. Quite apart from Zom being a superbadass, Worldgen battles at this time consist of the two opposing forces lining up facing each other, then each sending one warrior out to do battle until they die, replacing them with another and so on until one side has no soldiers left. So basically a giant one-on-one duelling tornament to decide the fate of the pile of mouldy zombie kobolds in the sewer.

This is worst than a bug then. It is a flawed feature.

It will change soon, war system improvements are planned in this decade.

I'm kind of curious what superior auto-resolve algorithm Toady has planned for world-gen battles that both provides satisfactory outcomes and doesn't lag worldgen to hell and back. This is a problem I'm personally interested in solving.
[/quote]
He'll just make it show the process and we're going to watch a fifteen minutes of world history before playing.

[darkflagrance]

No... Not really. Quite apart from Zom being a superbadass, Worldgen battles at this time consist of the two opposing forces lining up facing each other, then each sending one warrior out to do battle until they die, replacing them with another and so on until one side has no soldiers left. So basically a giant one-on-one duelling tornament to decide the fate of the pile of mouldy zombie kobolds in the sewer.

This is worst than a bug then. It is a flawed feature.

It will change soon, war system improvements are planned in this decade.

I'm kind of curious what superior auto-resolve algorithm Toady has planned for world-gen battles that both provides satisfactory outcomes and doesn't lag worldgen to hell and back. This is a problem I'm personally interested in solving.

It seems to me that it wouldn't be THAT hard to just allowed outnumbered civs to gang up on whoever they are attacking. So for example, if there's 3 humans and one goblin, the humans get to attack him 3 times before he attacks back (using whatever rules worldgen combat uses now). It does not seem like it would be significantly laggier then what we have now, and in fact might end up faster (because wars would be over much, much quicker).

Of course there should be some limit, like say 10 on one, because 2,000 humans can't really all dogpile on one poor troll, but being outnumbered should be very bad for the guys with less men. Heck, if toady wanted to get fancy he could even make something like leadership effect this - so say you've got a dabbling leader with 2000 humans vs a legendary leader with 100 goblins, maybe they fight 1 on 1 anyway like it is right now, to represent better positioning, logistics, etc.

then again I know almost nothing about coding and nothing about how worldgen fights are handled (other then being 1v1), so maybe it would be harder then I think.

Actually, I've been coding a rough simulation of warring tribes in my spare time, and that is pretty much the algorithm I used. There were several means of auto-resolution: battles where each combatant found an opponent until one side ran out of soldiers, and the battles were when resolved, battles where I lined up the combatants according to skill, and battles with the larger side accumulating in groups equal to the factor by which they outnumbered the other side (for example, a 30 to 10 would result in mini battles of 3 vs 1) and once all battles were arranged, I resolved them automatically. When minibattles ended, I would have their survivors randomly join other battles and remove dead, crippled, or fleeing soldiers. I also tracked the relative strategy, intelligence, and experience of field commanders to calculate whether or not they would try for optimal arrangements of their forces, and whether weather screwed them up.

On the other hand, I wonder if this kind of simulation would satisfy Toady. Otherwise, I doubt it would be difficult to implement something of this modest capacity (unless the current battle code is tied into a million other systems or something).

[simonthedwarf]

Simply, you add a modifier for each individual soldier's ability to win the fight depending on how many is left on his side.

If there's 4 on the defenders side, and 4000 on the attackers, it should be impossible to win for anything but the most improbable and worthy of heroes.

[slothen]

Okay, here's some goblin valor that happened to me around DF2010 v.14 or some version around there.  I built an epic fortress, found an underground curious structure.  I built a lever operated bridge across a chasm to the structure , and a ton of adamantine weaponry and armor.  I abandoned my fortress, and returned as an adventurer.  I didn't (and still don't) know much about adventure more or reclaims, and I traveled right to my fortress in order to start my first adventurer with some nice gear.

I was wearing leather armor or clothes and using a silver short sword.  When I arrived I found my fortress in disarray, and searched the top levels for food or usable equipment.  I found none, and began exploring the central living quarters of my fortress.  I fought a few elk birds and other cave creatures.  I then found a goblin who spoke to me.  His name was Nxub, goblin spearman.  He asked me, "Will you lead me to glory and death?"  I considered his words, and told him he would find both if he followed me.  We continued searching the fortress killing a few creatures as we went.  We even killed a forgotten beast.  Eventually there was nowhere to search but the mining tunnels, and the bridge leading to the caverns.  We traveled to the bridge (just a lever linked grate over a long drop.  To my horror, there was another forgotten beast waiting on the other side!  I hesitated for a moment, considering possible alternatives forward, but there were none.  With Nxub at my side we might stand a chance.  I pulled the lever and we crossed.  The beast announced itself.  I won't speak its incomprehensible name, but its appearance I shall never forget.  It was a giant crab made of coral or rock.  We fought it head on, roughly on a 4x5 area with cavern wall on one side and incomprehensibly deep chasms on three sides.  The battle was long.  Nxub and I flanked the beast, defending as it attacked us and attacking from behind when it turned to the other.  Our blows wounded the monster, but its attacks did not flag, it did not tire or weaken.  After many close calls with the edge of the ledge, I was tired and bruised all over, and Nxub had just taken a nasty blow to his shin.  Still, his expression was joyous, and he did not pause, nor shout, or yell as he saw me cease my attack and turn to the path ahead, away from the chasm, away from the monster, and away from my only path to the surface.  The last I knew of him was his laugh as I descended into the darkness.  By following me did he achieve glory and death?  Most assuredly, but whose death it was I cannot know.  You may say I abandoned him, and you may be right, but I feel no guilt.  I turned away from that battle on the bridge, but not towards light or life.  I sought glory and death, and found them.  But that is another tale.

ALL HAIL NXUB, GOBLIN HERO