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[Aquillion]

I've been thinking about ways to make living without wood for a while a little more feasible.  It shouldn't be easy, of course, but some things that are currently extremely difficult (getting a bucket for your well, building places to sleep) really seem like they should have non-wooden options or at least be available in other ways.

For the bucket, perhaps the initial dwarf traders should have one for sale?  It's a pretty common item.  For later buckets, there could be an option to make them out of copper, tin, and other metals, since that's what many real-world buckets are made out of.

For beds, perhaps there should be an option to make hammocks out of fabric or silk?  They could then be placed normally with the 'bed' interface. These probably wouldn't make dwarves as happy as a real bed, but they'd at least provide players with some way of keeping up with immigrants.

Of course players can eventually get mushrooms, but that takes a while and produces wood only in limited quantities.  It seems odd to have dwarves dying of thirst and going mad from lack of sleep just because you can't get a little wood...

[ August 13, 2006: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Zonk]

Buckets made of stone, maybe? That wouldn't be that unrealistic...

[CogDissident]

Disassemble the wagon you arrive with, its worth a few pieces of wood. That should get you enough for one well and 5 beds, which "might" hold you over if you get a lot of nice stone sculptures to keep them happy.

[Zonk]

Also, we might implement Clay/Earthenware containers. And why not use leather/animal parts to make waterskins/water bags and use them instead of buckets?

[karnot]

quote: Also, we might implement Clay/Earthenware containers. And why not use leather/animal parts to make waterskins/water bags and use them instead of buckets?

But it wouldnt be so cool to just make them, oh no sir. Just running out of wood is not enough. They should have some unique option, coz even tho its a realistic game - it should still stay a game.
For example...hmm...leather stuff doesnt burn in fire, if it will get to the stage of fire implementation.
And clay pots may double as crafts !

[Aquillion]

quote:Originally posted by Zonk:
<STRONG>Also, we might implement Clay/Earthenware containers. And why not use leather/animal parts to make waterskins/water bags and use them instead of buckets?</STRONG>

I don't know if those would work in a well.  They might have other uses, though...

Dwarves with individual small drink containers in their possession could keep them filled and drink from them, reducing the number of trips required to the well/river.

Hrm.  I wonder, could there be an option to just full barrels up with water at the river?  This could be done by having an option on the 'q' screen for the food stockpile that lets you decide the number of water barrels you want kept there.  As long as there are fewer than that number, the dwarves will grab free barrels, fill them with water, store them there, and drink directly from those.  The limited number would be necessary to keep them from wasting every barrel you have on this...

Hrm.  If players could place barrels at a specific place with the 'build' key, this could be used as a quick-and-dirty substitute for a well; the dwarves would just have to fill it up whenever it was empty...

[Toady One]

The dwarven soldiers currently keep waterskins and backpacks with water and food, so this could be adapted to civilian life -- the backpacks for civilians would be sort of silly, and well, instead of waterskins they should all really be keeping those metal flasks, filled with booze.  That was a bloat I think.  Maybe even a req.

Clay was a bloat -- in particular because the kiln is an underused building.  It would be fun to mix up different glazes and so on.  Or just another thing to do.

Beds aren't really specified so well...  there are the "what is the game" issues, but I just like adding stuff.  Silk requires exposing yourself to the river anyway, so having hammocks might not be such a challenge killer, and it's (slightly) harder to get than wood at first, especially in the first few seasons.  The dwarves are all gonna die anyway.  It might be fun to add some luxury components for them, like matresses and blankets and pillows, although that might be wimpy for a dwarf.  I doubt dwarven children need security blankets, but they should dig the miniforge more.

Unless I get hit by a comet or something, we'll get to fire.  The game needs fire.  Especially clubbing people in the face with torches in adventure mode, and throwing torches on the ground and so on.  There are already so many inconveniences, you won't mind lighting.  Sticks, rags, pitch and there you go (and lighting the thing, of course).  Then the peasants can have pitch forks.  And what's all this stuff about romans using sulphur and lime for underwater torches?  It was a sentence on wikipedia.

[ August 13, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Eagleon]

Sounds like phosphorescence. You'd just heat lime and sulphur, or something with both, and an agent to remove some of the oxygen, like carbon. Probably pretty easy for the dwarves.

On a (historically) related note, they'd probably come up with cement pretty quickly, too. I imagine they might even come up with something with some luminosity, although I don't know how long it'd last.

[Toady One]

Yeah, there's various information on quicklime for them as well.  We have limestone and kilns (dunno if that's the right furnace), so we can bake the lime.  And various other complications and stuffs.  Get that alchemist shop beyond the soap.  And then actual get it to do real strange stuff, like colorful gem lamps and so on.  Or maybe they should be called jem lamps, because that would hurt the user more.

[ August 13, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Aquillion]

Tame fireflies.  Don't forget the tame fireflies.  You could hang wild ones in cages, or release tame ones and have them follow your dwarves around.

It would probably be good to support ordering trappers to catch a particular type of creature somehow if that's going to be put in, though.  Giving the order and crossing your fingers would get old fast.

[JT]

Fireflies!  That's a great idea.

I wonder whether elves would pay out the nose for them, since it's a great natural source of light that doesn't harm any trees, or whether they'd be furious because the poor insects are kept imprisoned against their tiny, tiny, indefinable wills.

[Toady One]

They use firefly lamps in one of TTs stories.  I think in general, the elves don't mind animal labor in a sense, but they probably come to some kind of agreement with the animal...  a meeting of the minds.

The fireflies only do those little blips in adventure mode right now...  I'll have to see what I can manage with the real lighting code when I get there.  Clearly, there will have to be fixed and carried light.  I don't suppose having the occasional collection of vermin cast light would be a huge processor load.

edit:  and, of course, big lightning flashes that let you see the evil creature running toward you for a move or so.

[ August 13, 2006: Message edited by: Toady One ]

[Aquillion]

Can't dwarves see in the dark a little, though?  They might get a penalty, miss details and generally not be happy about it, but they should be able to figure out the general layout of a cave and notice if there's something big moving in it, for instance.

...perhaps a lantern or two should also be in your starting equipment by default.  I can see people having trouble getting off the ground without one, especially on a level with no plants.

[ August 13, 2006: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Toady One]

Oh, sorry, that was all adventure mode blabbering.  And the TT story with fireflies was elves.

Yeah, we were basically thinking that dwarves would be fine in the dark, but that they'd like illumination, possibly in certain colors.  So you might want to place a ruby lamp in the count's bedroom or something...

The adventurer even in play now should have something...  groping around in the dark on your first game would really suck, especially since dark is going to be can't-see-your-hand dark (even on moonless cloudy nights outside, like somebody I know described hiking in southern utah).  The scenario arc will rectify the rest of the problems, but as Aquillion points out (more than once), I often make the first experience a bit harsh in ways, and maybe the play now adventurer shouldn't be blind too.

[Captain_Action]

Damn you, Toady! You just want to part me from my firefly murdering cats!  

On serious note, are there any oil seed bearing plants grown? If so, easily spilled oil lamps?