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Author Topic: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal  (Read 954 times)

xordae

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First: Constructed walls should be just like regular, native stone walls.

The Egyptians built out of massive stone blocks and all it took was some round wooden logs and a whip. And Dwarves are specialized stoneworkers! What is the difference between a solid stone wall and a wall that is made out of 3 pieces? The grooves between blocks? Being able to fill spaces with stone gives you the freedom to build where you want and what you want, if you have the time. Even if you make it take much longer than it currently does to balance it out.

- Soil layers are a turnoff for fortress construction. The only advantage is farming. You're pretty much required to dig deeper just to start building, and you can't be sure you won't run into a soil patch a few levels further down too. There goes your perfectly planned engraved dining room. Sometimes the first cave layer is really pretty damn close to the surface, and a vertical fortress is suddenly not viable anymore.

- It would ease the introduction of enemy diggers without making them a huge pain in the ass. It would balance the enemy digging functionality and would enable you to give destroyers and diggers more power without hassle, thereby alleviating much of the turtle syndrome. Since diggers will definitely be in the game, so will breaches. This simply transforms the wristcutting moment of "There goes my painstakingly planned layout" into something fun.


Second: Ability to place soil.

This goes hand in hand with the first suggestion. It makes no sense that soil can be removed without any left over product, it is simply one of those essentials that could be expanded in a useful way. And all you need is a shovel (and again, a whip).

- It would allow Dwarves to shape landscapes. Hills have strategic value for fortress defense, or they can simply look cool. Ponds can be in the way, why not simply fill them up? Rivers have such cool possibilities, why not be able to put down levees and dams and force a river to go another way? The one problem I see with rerouting rivers is that it will differ from what worldgen shows if you abandon the fort. But the solution is easy. Worldgen won't change the river. It is assumed that after abandoning the fort, the river found back to its old bed since the dam was not tended.

- Earth is useful for growing plants and to produce clay. And probably for a bunch of other things that don't come to mind. But really, in a game that has large amounts of digging and is regarded as very down-to-detail, shouldn't earth be represented?


Third: Compost.

Earth is also a product of compost. Compost accelerates decomposition. And decomposition is a big thing! This ties into the whole waste disposal issue. Compost will of course only work for certain materials. Leather, cloth, wood, food, corpses and bodyparts among them.

- There's so much Goblin junk that it skews the whole economy down a very bad slope. Why produce crafts and all the cool stuff that Dwarves produce when you end up not selling a single item of it? Every siege yields two dozen bins full of Goblin junk. Make Dwarves chuck the junk into the compost and receive earth and good fertilizer in return. Make this the main mechanic to receive fertilizer.

- Atom smashers bye-bye. One of the most widespread exploits that almost everybody uses because it is necessary. This should show you that the balance is off.
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Dsarker

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 08:25:17 am »

Love these ideas.
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peskyninja

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 11:22:21 am »

Same here, but how soil would be stored? How it would be collected, like clay or it would drop a "soil boulder" or something similar?
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Silverionmox

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 12:32:23 pm »

- Just add a designation like the one used to hide/show engravings, for which we can set the standard in the init.txt. That way you can have walls that look natural, but the structural difference remains.

- Earth blocks, simply. These would turn into a natural earthen wall after a while...
 (It can be expanded later with a system for bags, buckets and wheelbarrows full of powder, sawdust and sand.)

- Once the proper economy is up the junk will devalue on its own. We also need combined hauling, so one dwarf with a basket can clean up the dirty laundry of several ex-goblins. That doesn't mean composting isn't eagerly awaited, but we need better hauling first to make it possible to work. Even then, goblin clothes will be just a small part: it'll be mostly corpses, food leftovers, dead plants like straw and - dare I say it? - feces (represented by a nice brown @, or simply a , for the faint of heart).
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Di

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2011, 01:31:54 pm »

Well, technically, walls are made of single piece of stone  :)
You know you could spare some letters for actual suggestions. I guess first is something about using wooden logs and whips to move natural walls in desired place? The second is quite clear (using spades to build soil walls on same level and/or levels below?)
And the third is about mixing organic stuff with water and soil to get compost right?
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Dsarker

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2011, 03:56:41 pm »

Well, technically, walls are made of single piece of stone  :)
You know you could spare some letters for actual suggestions. I guess first is something about using wooden logs and whips to move natural walls in desired place? The second is quite clear (using spades to build soil walls on same level and/or levels below?)
And the third is about mixing organic stuff with water and soil to get compost right?

First is about being able to replace soil with stone so that you can engrave it and the like.
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tHe_silent_H

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 12:50:09 am »

Well, technically, walls are made of single piece of stone  :)
You know you could spare some letters for actual suggestions. I guess first is something about using wooden logs and whips to move natural walls in desired place? The second is quite clear (using spades to build soil walls on same level and/or levels below?)
And the third is about mixing organic stuff with water and soil to get compost right?

First is about being able to replace soil with stone so that you can engrave it and the like.


I'd prefer tapesrty and paintings rather than being able to engarve constructed walls, as well as carpets/mats for the floor.

But i do like the second one, it will make indoor farming a little bit too easy though.
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xordae

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2011, 05:39:19 am »

You can already farm everywhere on underground soil without irrigation, at least to my knowledge. So it is already too easy. I agree that it shouldn't be, though. It'd be more realistic if you were required to irrigate before you could place a plot, or even irrigate at a certain interval after you've placed it. But that's a different discussion.

Di, the suggestions are marked in bold. The text underneath is just my reasoning behind it.

Yeah, constructed walls are already made from a single bit of stone. But they stand out in various ways. They can never be as high quality as an engraved cave wall and that I just don't get. Engravings are not that deep that you couldn't do it on a constructed wall.

Pieces of soil could behave like stones behave. It makes no sense to be able to fit multiple into a single bin, but it would de-clutter considerably. Just like stone. Basically this is a realism vs. ease of use decision and has no impact on the actual application.
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Jheral

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Re: Expand core functions of building, landscaping and waste disposal
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 12:21:23 pm »

I suppose you could go the "fluid" route with it, like Toady et al debated doing with sand in one of the DF Talks. Could work for rocks too, tbh - each mined block of stone creating a number of instances (based on the skill of the miner) of a "rock/soil" fluid, that would need to be moved away before moving on. When mining ore or gem clusters, ore and gems would be a portion of the mix, with what is left being the natural stone of that particular layer.

Would get rid of all those clashing patches of colour ruining the uniformity of the fortress, too, as well as allowing for more fine-grained use of stone (i.e. not needing a full block's worth of stone for a ring, or similar).
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