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Author Topic: Dwarves planning their pathing before they build  (Read 6829 times)

Starver

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Re: Dwarves planning their pathing before they build
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2011, 02:52:14 pm »

  Having worked in construction and heavy industry before, and seen what happens in real life on construction jobs, I can tell you that while the dwarves do it more regularly than real humans, humans make some pretty absurd pathing errors too - sometimes leading to death.
I've certainly heard of (from reliable news-sources, but my GoogleNews-Fu isn't bringing anything up from on-line, which is probably because my recollection is from pre-web times) workers drilling out a large circle of concrete floor to be removed and standing in the centre when the last crucial severing caused the chunk to cave-in, with them on it.  The workers had ensured that no-one was standing below but had not imagined that they'd be putting themselves in the position of the person sawing off the tree branch he was sitting at the end of.  (Which has also happened many, many times... enough to have been sent up and otherwise portrayed[1] in many fictional portrayals...)


On topic, I find all the possibilities raised quite interesting, but most seem to be adding layers of complexity which can be dealt with through playing style.

I'll admit that I'd like a phased-deconstruction method that doesn't need more micromanaging, but I rarely set solid wall-block constructions in place (at most, two tiles thick with access usually from both sides).  I do, however, heavily rely upon the LIFO job ordering to set things in place like the most vital floors (lay out a small array, then cancel a "path" of floors that I need to reach to the edges and re-apply the floors, which then largely get completed as a priority, at least until I set up something else somewhere else) and breaking that would mean a whole lot of re-assessing my now instinctive strategies.

Perhaps it would be more applicable (to me) once we get [CONSTRUCTION_DESTROYER:n] creatures and/or sappers who attack and try to deconstruct walls.  Or potentially wall-destroying siege machinery.  Because then barriers the thickness of those in the auto-generated town-walls will have to come into their own...  (And/or ones with water/magma-filled cores which inconvenience anyone who breaches them.  Possibly even magma-farm-like regenerating walls with both!)  I already design my forts with some currently unneeded anti-ConstructionDestroyer features, and so await the time when they are necessary (possibly even insufficient!) with excitement and not a little trepidation.


[1] And hilariously inverted, where the tree falls and the branch stays hovering, much to the consternation of the villain of the piece who this time had taken care that he was on the trunk side and the protagonist was on the other...
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Jibekn

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Re: Dwarves planning their pathing before they build
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2011, 10:41:28 am »


Count keypresses:

b-C-w-[enter:location]-[enter:material], done.

b-b-[enter:location]-[enter:direction]-[enter-material], done.

It's the same number, except one thing: the walls are under a sub-group.  By making them "exactly like bridges" you add 1 keypress: "press enter for no direction."

Wouldn't it be 'b-C-w[enter:location / press wadxs etc. for changing direction/don't press anything at all to use current system]-[enter material]'?

Why would it require another menu before material selection? Don't bridges ask for a direction in the same menu that you size/place them with, and still require only one keypress for a retracting bridge?

So, if it just defaulted to no specified direction unless you pressed one of the other keys, it would be the same as bridges requiring two menus, one to place/size/optionally choose direction, the other to pick material.

That is correct, however its a moot point, as if you take my system and model it, you find one of two things, its works, and it works poorly. Every clustered construction would be reduced to one mason building it at a time, which is unacceptable to me.
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Frelock

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Re: Dwarves planning their pathing before they build
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2011, 02:02:56 pm »

Count keypresses:
b-C-w-[enter:location]-[enter:material], done.
b-b-[enter:location]-[enter:direction]-[enter-material], done.
It's the same number, except one thing: the walls are under a sub-group.  By making them "exactly like bridges" you add 1 keypress: "press enter for no direction."
Wouldn't it be 'b-C-w[enter:location / press wadxs etc. for changing direction/don't press anything at all to use current system]-[enter material]'?
Why would it require another menu before material selection? Don't bridges ask for a direction in the same menu that you size/place them with, and still require only one keypress for a retracting bridge?
So, if it just defaulted to no specified direction unless you pressed one of the other keys, it would be the same as bridges requiring two menus, one to place/size/optionally choose direction, the other to pick material.
That is correct, however its a moot point, as if you take my system and model it, you find one of two things, its works, and it works poorly. Every clustered construction would be reduced to one mason building it at a time, which is unacceptable to me.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that Draco's key-press count for bridges is off; there is no separate "enter direction" press necessarily; it defaults to retracting if you neglect to set a direction before giving it its location so you have b-b-[enter location/(optional)enter direction]-[enter material].  Sscral's system seems like it would work.

Second, to address Jibekn point, walls are always built in rectangular shapes.  So, with Sscral's system, you simply can go down each line of the rectangle in the direction desired.  For example, if you tasked it to build from the north, then each construction would not be built until the one directly to the south of it was.  So if there were 10 tiles east to west, you would have ten columns to be completed, and 10 masons could work on it.  If you had just one column, you would have only one mason, but since you specified to build from the north instead of, say, the east, you probably wanted that anyhow.

Third, another possible solution is to give an init option which allows you to change the default position for dwarves to stand in.  Though this might be a bit tedious for a single wall, it would be very useful for large, single-direction constructions, as well as mining.  I can't tell you how many times I wanted my dwarves to channel from top to bottom instead of bottom to top.
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All generalizations are false....including this one.
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